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Old 08-08-2015, 09:56 AM   #1
Icelander
 
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Default Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

I'm trying to determine what defaults to older and dead Celtic and Brythonic languages it would be fair to give a 20th century academic of Celtic Studies from Oxford.

The character speaks modern Scottish Gaelic (Native) and has a few points to spend on being able to read manuscripts and inscriptions, which she did at university. She's established as being able to read the most common Gaelic and Welsh manuscripts with ease and the oldest with some minor difficulty, which probably means Middle Welsh and Middle Irish at Accented or better, but I hadn't statted out what that meant in game terms.

Which Celtic languages should default to Scottish Gaelic at one step lower?

Which should default at two steps lower?

Are modern Welsh, Middle Welsh and Old Welsh seperate languages?*

This is important now, because she'll be meeting people who speak languages that defaults to Old Irish and Old Welsh, so it's important to know precisely how good her spoken Old Irish or Old Welsh would be, defaulting from spoken Scottish Gaelic and knowing how to read manuscripts from Wales and Gaelic areas from the 6th century on.

*Ditto for similar examples with Scottish Gaelic or other evolving languages.
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Old 08-08-2015, 10:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

It's been quite a while since I stopped speaking Welsh, but from what I remember...

Welsh and the Gaelic languages seem about as mutually incomprehensible as English and German. I guess about Broken level from Native? Certainly bad enough that people with relatively poor English (I don't think any Welsh or Gaelic speakers are likely to have English at worse than Accented) would rather use that as a Lingua Franca than rely on the common ground between the two languages.

I've never met a Cornish speaker, so I'm not sure how easy it would be to cross the language divide in person, but written Cornish seems to be very close to Welsh. Possibly you could class them as distant dialects of the same language, or closely related languages. As far as I can tell, it's about the same difference as Portuguese and Spanish or German and Danish (bearing in mind that I don't speak any of those languages, so my understanding is probably a bit off).

Middle Welsh is closer to Modern Welsh than Middle English is to Modern English. The original Mabinogion, for example, is at least as readable to a native Welsh speaker as Shakespeare would be to an English speaker. I never really looked at Old Welsh, but at a glance it seems about as distant from Modern Welsh as Middle English is from Modern English (i.e. I can't read it, but some of it seems vaguely familiar and when I look at a translation it makes sense, so I think I could get some vague idea of meaning given a lot of time and effort).

At a guess, I'd say -1 level from Modern Welsh to Middle Welsh or Cornish, -2 from any of them to any form of modern Gaelic. Early forms of Welsh and Gaelic are probably closer to each other than the modern versions, but I couldn't say for sure.
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Old 08-08-2015, 10:34 AM   #3
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Which Celtic languages should default to Scottish Gaelic at one step lower?
For Gaelic, maybe none of them. Looking at the lexicostatistics, the similarity of Scottish or Irish Gaelic to Breton or Welsh falls somewhere between the similarity of Icelandic to Dutch and Polish.

Breton and the dialects of Welsh are about as similar to each other as Icelandic is to the more divergent dialects of Swedish, and they diverged somewhat before the period of Old Welsh, so those probably should have a decent default.

Quote:
This is important now, because she'll be meeting people who speak languages that defaults to Old Irish and Old Welsh, so it's important to know precisely how good her spoken Old Irish or Old Welsh would be, defaulting from spoken Scottish Gaelic and knowing how to read manuscripts from Wales and Gaelic areas from the 6th century on.
I'd call either Old language no more than a -1 step for the modern equivalent, the default rules are pretty blunt and it's more than Broken. A default between Welsh and Irish better than Broken is excessive - if she's actually reading manuscripts from Wales, she needs some form of Welsh.
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Old 08-08-2015, 10:54 AM   #4
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

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I'd call either Old language no more than a -1 step for the modern equivalent, the default rules are pretty blunt and it's more than Broken. A default between Welsh and Irish better than Broken is excessive - if she's actually reading manuscripts from Wales, she needs some form of Welsh.
I want the character to read and write the Welsh language of the most common manuscripts at Native, but possibly be slightly less adept at speaking the modern language. Would it be excessively harsh to treat Old and Modern Welsh both as defaulting at -1 from Middle Welsh?

Is Middle Welsh possibly just a dialect from Modern Welsh, realistically?
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Old 08-08-2015, 11:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

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Is Middle Welsh possibly just a dialect from Modern Welsh, realistically?
Depends on where you draw the line between language and dialect, really. If you lump Shakespeare and AAVE into one language, I'd certainly do the same for Modern Welsh and Middle Welsh. You have the issue that Middle Welsh is probably close enough to Modern Welsh and Old Welsh that it counts as a dialect of both, but the two forms at either end are different enough to count as separate languages, but that kind of problem happens no matter where you draw the line.
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Old 08-08-2015, 12:09 PM   #6
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I want the character to read and write the Welsh language of the most common manuscripts at Native, but possibly be slightly less adept at speaking the modern language. Would it be excessively harsh to treat Old and Modern Welsh both as defaulting at -1 from Middle Welsh?

Is Middle Welsh possibly just a dialect from Modern Welsh, realistically?
Or vice versa. A point single language names like this sweep under the rug is that before printing and mass communications, there won't be [a] "Middle" or "Old" Welsh language. There will be a varied mix of local dialects, some of which may well be more different from each other than either is from the modern form. Giving her "Early 14th Century Central South Glamorgan Southern Middle Welsh" at "Accented" - horrible name that - and calling modern or other middle dialects (and the local dialect of Old Welsh in that area if you like) different accents - mutually comprehensible but sound funny - isn't so unreasonable. It's likely enough that whatever people spoke in the vicinity of the modern capital city 1000 years in any nation is more similar to the modern national language than some of the "dialects" contemporary with it.
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Old 08-09-2015, 05:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

...a warning. I love languages.

First, I'd say Scots Gaelic and Welsh are distinct languages with no real default between them. Not to go into too many details, the surviving Celtic languages are basically divided into two groups: Goidelic (Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic and Revived Manx) and Brythonic (Breton, Revived Cornish and Welsh). There's a third (more theoretical) group as well, Continental Celtic (Celtiberian, Galatian, Gaulish, Leopontic and Noric), but all of these languages are extinct and most of them have very, very few surviving examples, so their relationship to one another, grammatical structure and linguistic differences are tricky, at best, to tell today.

The other important thing to remember is that the Celtic languages that survived to the modern day didn't change nearly as much as English did over the course of its history. They were heavily influenced by Latin (mainly in borrowed proper nouns) in the Middle Ages, but otherwise didn't change as drastically over the centuries. English, by comparison, has a Germanic grammatical structure, borrowed continuous tenses from Celtic, a large body of words from French (about a third of the words in the English dictionary are French) and a huge array of borrowed words from other languages (frex, we tend to use Latin and Greek for scientific and medical terms, Dutch words sneak into terms related to shipping, Spanish words for concepts related to warfare and Italian words for musical concepts and some food).

Another important thing to remember is that there are precious few examples the writing of older versions or modern Celtic languages surviving into the modern age. Examples of writing in Old Welsh, for example, are mostly some poems that survived and, I think, an inscription on a gravestone is the longest surviving example of Old Welsh. And it still wasn't all that different from Modern Welsh.

Summary (TL;DR): I'd say the Goidelic Languages and the Brythonic Languages have no default to one another... they're separate Language Advantages. Between languages in each group, I'd give a two step default: Scots Gaelic to Irish Gaelic would be Native to Broken. When going backwards, I'd say its just one step: Modern Welsh to Middle Welsh would be Native to Accented and Modern Welsh to Early Welsh would be Native to Broken (and even that may be too much of a penalty to reflect the lack of differences...).

In your example, being a native Scots Gaelic speaker would give no default to any of the Welsh languages (because they're in different language groups), but I'd say it would give a two-step default to Irish Gaelic.
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Old 08-09-2015, 12:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

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First, I'd say Scots Gaelic and Welsh are distinct languages with no real default between them. Not to go into too many details, the surviving Celtic languages are basically divided into two groups: Goidelic (Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic and Revived Manx) and Brythonic (Breton, Revived Cornish and Welsh).
While the character did her studying in the 30s and early 40s, the game-play implications that are most vital concern defaults to Insular Celtic languages as they stood around 500 AD.

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Originally Posted by Noctifer View Post
Summary (TL;DR): I'd say the Goidelic Languages and the Brythonic Languages have no default to one another... they're separate Language Advantages. Between languages in each group, I'd give a two step default: Scots Gaelic to Irish Gaelic would be Native to Broken.
Are you sure knowing one Insular Celtic language doesn't provide any benefit to learning others, even if those are not mutually intelligable? Two step defaults are pretty steep, after all.

Also, the languages that the PC will encounter are analogus to those spoken in Dyfed ca 500 AD. Dyfed was settled by Irish, but the language spoken there devoloped into a dialect of Welsh. It seems that the two weren't so far apart at the time, at least.

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When going backwards, I'd say its just one step: Modern Welsh to Middle Welsh would be Native to Accented and Modern Welsh to Early Welsh would be Native to Broken (and even that may be too much of a penalty to reflect the lack of differences...)
Seems fair enough and is simple and consistent. The character has read manuscripts in Middle Welsh extensively (she does original research on comparative literature and mythology in post-Roman Britain) and spent several months as a doctoral research assistant to a professor reconstructing Early Welsh.

She'll also have a couple of points in whatever Goidelic language most Early Medieval written material exists in. What ought she have learnt to be able to read most extant post-Roman/pre-Saxon British literature?

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In your example, being a native Scots Gaelic speaker would give no default to any of the Welsh languages (because they're in different language groups), but I'd say it would give a two-step default to Irish Gaelic.
Two step default? You mean a speaker of modern Scottish Gaelic speaker with Native proficiency would get Broken modern Irish Gaelic?

That seems very harsh. Are they really so different?

What about defaults to older languages from modern Scottish Gaelic?
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Old 08-09-2015, 03:50 PM   #9
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

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While the character did her studying in the 30s and early 40s, the game-play implications that are most vital concern defaults to Insular Celtic languages as they stood around 500 AD.
Around 500 AD, we're actually around 50 years before Welsh started to become distinct from a Common Breton language and Archaic Irish was predominant in Ireland. By this time, they had already split into Goidelic and Brittonic languages. There are certainly some loan words between the two.

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Are you sure knowing one Insular Celtic language doesn't provide any benefit to learning others, even if those are not mutually intelligable? Two step defaults are pretty steep, after all.
Two step defaults are a bit steep and, in this early period, it might be more of a one-step default, though the split in the languages had already occurred by this point. I still contend there'd be enough differences between the languages to warrant it.

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Also, the languages that the PC will encounter are analogus to those spoken in Dyfed ca 500 AD. Dyfed was settled by Irish, but the language spoken there devoloped into a dialect of Welsh. It seems that the two weren't so far apart at the time, at least.
Modern scholarship suggests that the The Expulsion of the Déisi, where that migration was described, was likely not a historically accurate story. It was written in the 8th century and more or less meant to provide a royal lineage to the Kings of Dyfed tracing back to Tara, though other royal lineages for Dyfed trace them back to Constantine I. While there was certainly cross-pollination of cultures in the Roman and post-Roman period, linguistically speaking the early Irish settlers seem to have been subsumed into the local Welsh culture.

In contrast, Scots Gaelic developed in Dál Riata because the Celts of Western Scotland were, essentially, Irish and the Grampian Mountains were enough of a physical barrier to prevent the language from spreading into the Pictish and Breton-speaking lowlands.

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She'll also have a couple of points in whatever Goidelic language most Early Medieval written material exists in. What ought she have learnt to be able to read most extant post-Roman/pre-Saxon British literature?
Latin. Though there was some writing going on, its important to remember that there's no real evidence that pre-Roman Insular Celts had a written language. Ogham, the earliest Insular Celtic writing system, was likely invented in the Roman period (perhaps as a cipher meant to confuse Roman occupiers). Even so, the vast, vast majority of writing that we have from the Early Medieval Period in the British Isles is Latin, written by monks. Knowledge of Latin was critical during this period, particularly among Irish monks, who became renowned scholars throughout western Europe during the Early Middle Ages because of their knowledge of Latin (and because Ireland didn't have the same migratory pressures that Continental Europe had during this period). Two of the earliest examples of Irish literature, for example, were written by St. Patrick in the 5th century in Latin.

In contrast, the earliest Irish writing we have beyond inscriptions is the Book of Armagh, writing some time in the 8th century.

My point here is that there's no real evidence that there was much literature being written down in 500 AD on either side of the Irish Sea, except in Latin by monks. If you want to read existing Early Medieval manuscripts from the British Isles, you'd best know your Latin.

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Two step default? You mean a speaker of modern Scottish Gaelic speaker with Native proficiency would get Broken modern Irish Gaelic?

That seems very harsh. Are they really so different?
Yes.

To my knowledge, they are generally considered different languages, not dialects of one another. They are as distinct as, say, French and Spanish... while two people unfamiliar with the others' language may be able to get some words across and have very similar alphabets, a native French speaker is going to have a heck of a time writing any real prose in Spanish without having studied Spanish. At best, they might be as different as Spanish and Portuguese, which are a bit closer, linguistically, but still distinct languages.

Admittedly, I don't speak either Irish or Scots Gaelic, so I can't speak from personal experience. I'm basing this on the study of linguistics and how they're classified in linguistic charts.

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What about defaults to older languages from modern Scottish Gaelic?
I'd say Scots Gaelic could default back to Old Irish with a step or two (more likely two). I'd say there is no route for a 'default' between Scots Gaelic and Old Welsh, because of that Goidelic/Bretonic split prior to the Roman invasion.

Now one thing I _might_ consider is giving someone with Scots Gaelic (Native) the equivalent of automatic successes on a Linguistics roll each month to learn Welsh, particularly if she's immersed in the language (meaning it would take 200 hours per point to learn without a teacher instead of 800 hours per point).

Also, I should note I'm basing most of my recommendations on RAW GURPS. If there are supplements that cover language defaults, point me the way and I'll likely change my suggestions.
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Old 08-10-2015, 04:52 AM   #10
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Default Re: Defaults between Celtic languages and which languages to count as dialects

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Around 500 AD, we're actually around 50 years before Welsh started to become distinct from a Common Breton language and Archaic Irish was predominant in Ireland. By this time, they had already split into Goidelic and Brittonic languages. There are certainly some loan words between the two.
So in the setting I'm envisioning, we'd have a Common Brittonic language everywhere Romano-Britons live, with regional dialects that will eventually develop into languages, but haven't yet?

And the South Irish that raid/trade with/settle the kingdoms of the western coastline, mostly in modern Wales and Cornwall, will they speak Archaic Irish that is completely unintelligable to Common Brittonic speakers?

I thought that the Romano-Britons and the Irish could communicate, even if their languages were not perfectly mutually intelligable.

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Two step defaults are a bit steep and, in this early period, it might be more of a one-step default, though the split in the languages had already occurred by this point. I still contend there'd be enough differences between the languages to warrant it.
I'm fine with modern Scottish Gaelic being far enough from modern Welsh for there to be no default. I think that Archaic Irish and Common Brittonic ought to have a default, however.

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Originally Posted by Noctifer View Post
Modern scholarship suggests that the The Expulsion of the Déisi, where that migration was described, was likely not a historically accurate story. It was written in the 8th century and more or less meant to provide a royal lineage to the Kings of Dyfed tracing back to Tara, though other royal lineages for Dyfed trace them back to Constantine I.
While the story is unlikely to be accurate as regards the exact origins of the cultural elite, there is plenty of evidence that Irish-speakers with Irish architecture and artifacts spent considerable time on the Wales coast. Indeed, bilingual inscriptions in Irish (with Oggham script) and Common Brittonic (with Latin script) suggest settlement pretty strongly.

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Originally Posted by Noctifer View Post
While there was certainly cross-pollination of cultures in the Roman and post-Roman period, linguistically speaking the early Irish settlers seem to have been subsumed into the local Welsh culture.
While the Dyfed Gaels were almost certainly eventually subsumed into Welsh culture, with their language leaving occasional traces, but being lost from everyday speech, they might have retained a recognisable coastal culture for a few generations. And that would mean that they still had their language during the PCs visit.

The fantasy analogue world that the PCs are visiting will have languages that are recognisable as being more-or-less close relations to post-Roman British languages* and the socio-political situation is meant to reflect the latter half of the 5th century CE.

I do mean to exaggerate cultural differences and even have major physical differences in some extreme cases. I want the seafaring Gaels of the western coast to be very different from the forest-dwelling, horse-loving, poetry-obsessed Britons of sub-Roman Britain. And the invading Saxons, Jutes and Angles*** should be more different still.

I'm considering a 3' tall Old People race which will inhabit Pictland along with the Picts**, still retaining flint weapons and making up for it by having access to much more magic than the more standard 'human' races.

*Sometimes to the point of being just dialects.
**Which in that scenario would be a mix between a Celtic people and these non-Indo-European, Neolithic tiny folk.
***My first thought was to play with the fact that their later cousins, the Vikings, arrived in ships rigged with fearsome dragon heads when they came raiding. These fantasy analogues could tame dragons and be the Dragonlords.


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Latin. Though there was some writing going on, its important to remember that there's no real evidence that pre-Roman Insular Celts had a written language.
The character's field of study is not primarily pre-Roman, except in so far as romantic speculation about 'pure' Celtic cultures was very fashionable when she was at school. Her field is properly the mythology, folklore and superstitions of the Celtic cultures of Britain, which primarily means studying written materials in Vulgar Latin, Middle Welsh or other languages from the sub-Roman era or later, often trying to decipher the original myths from what monks wrote down centuries later.

If she was trying to reconstruct the Celtic culture of Scotland as an enthusiastic teenager growing up near Edinburgh* in the 1920s, however, what language would she learn for that?

Early Modern/Classical Irish at first and then delving back into older languages as her education progressed?

*On an estate with several Scottish Gaelic speaking people in jobs such as ghillies and groundskeepers.

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Ogham, the earliest Insular Celtic writing system, was likely invented in the Roman period (perhaps as a cipher meant to confuse Roman occupiers).
I note that the character in question has 4 points in Symbol Drawing (Oggham). While that would have been a quaint Hobby Skill on non-magical Earth, it's an adventuring skill in a fantasy world. It also suggests a major scholastic focus on deciphering Oggham inscriptions and consequent proficiency in archaic Insular Celtic languages.

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In contrast, the earliest Irish writing we have beyond inscriptions is the Book of Armagh, writing some time in the 8th century.
Old Irish. Would she have learnt that if she was primarily interested in Scotland?

Her learning Welsh is explained by desiring to know more about the Hen Ogledd and the Brythonic-speaking peoples who lived where she grew up before Northumbria, but she'd only learn Irish as it related to Scottish history.

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My point here is that there's no real evidence that there was much literature being written down in 500 AD on either side of the Irish Sea, except in Latin by monks. If you want to read existing Early Medieval manuscripts from the British Isles, you'd best know your Latin.
Monks in Wales, Ireland and Scotland all wrote manuscripts using the Latin alphabet, but Brythonic or Goidelic languages. It's those manuscripts the character is supposed to have been studying, along with inscriptions on rocks.

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Originally Posted by Noctifer View Post
Yes.

To my knowledge, they are generally considered different languages, not dialects of one another. They are as distinct as, say, French and Spanish... while two people unfamiliar with the others' language may be able to get some words across and have very similar alphabets, a native French speaker is going to have a heck of a time writing any real prose in Spanish without having studied Spanish. At best, they might be as different as Spanish and Portuguese, which are a bit closer, linguistically, but still distinct languages.
Spanish and Portuguese, in GURPS, are either rated as dialects* or as a perfect example of a -1 default between languages. Depends on how kind the GM is and how much of a point investment languages are meant to be in the game.

Rating French and Spanish as an example of a -2 default wouldn't be utterly crazy. Broken proficiency from a default is pretty much 'can communicate simple concepts by repeating, slowly, words you imagine might be common between related languages'.

If we want -1 default to exist at all in settings based on the real world, I think we shouldn't restrict them to two languages that are comfortably mutually intelligable.** That's the job of dialects and accents, which are bits of characterisation except when trying to pass for someone else.

*On the theory that individual Spanish dialects sometimes differ as much between themselves as Portuguese does from some Spanish dialects.
**Danish as taught in univerisities, i.e. with minimal regional variations, and Norwegian Bokmål are really dialects of one another, not just related languages with a -1 default between them. There are larger regional variations within Danish. It just so happens these two dialects have different armies and navies. I'd use -1 defaults between Swedish and Norwegian or Danish, and vice versa.


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Originally Posted by Noctifer View Post
Now one thing I _might_ consider is giving someone with Scots Gaelic (Native) the equivalent of automatic successes on a Linguistics roll each month to learn Welsh, particularly if she's immersed in the language (meaning it would take 200 hours per point to learn without a teacher instead of 800 hours per point).
The character's last research before the war was carried out in Dyfed, studying the interaction between Irish and Romano-Briton culture (seeking to further her understanding of the same process in the Hen Ogledd). So she started play able to read sub-Roman inscriptions written in Wales.

How she'll do speaking with Common Brittonic speakers might be different, of course, but then again, she has spent almost a year trying to reconstruct and interpret the myths, poetry and stories of people in Dyfed between 400 and 600 CE, so she might have a working knowledge of how they spoke.
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