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Old 06-22-2023, 06:41 PM   #11
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: How would you price the ability to become absolutely silent?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Given that -10 is the TDM for "impossible" (notwithstanding cinematically heroic PCs, natch), +10 is "automatic", and that complete darkness / blindness is also -10, wouldn't it be just 5 levels of Silence, at +2 / level, to get that +10? So, comparing costs to 25 points, rather than 50.

You can certainly argue that 10 isn't hard enough / easy enough to make absolute guarantees, but 20 seems like overkill given the RAW precedents.
The +2/level only applies when you're standing still. It's +1 otherwise.
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Old 06-22-2023, 08:08 PM   #12
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: How would you price the ability to become absolutely silent?

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
The +2/level only applies when you're standing still. It's +1 otherwise.
Good point. I'd lost track of the fact that the OP is referencing Obscure.

Though Stealth already specifies a penalty for moving (-5 when greater than Move 1). Cutting the Silence penalty in half for movement seems like the rules are double-dipping there. And it also seems like Obscure should suffer the same penalty, just for the sake of consistency.

(Obscure is agnostic as to the sense, so it just uses the word "detect" and doesn't go into details for any one particular sense; Stealth counters both vision and hearing, and so has its own weirdness when trying to determine a penalty that only affects one of those detecting senses -- here, that -5 is explicitly "to move silently", but of course motion attracts visual detection, too. And the game-stalking and following-not-in-a-crowd examples suggest that "hiding" doesn't imply complete immobility. Time for me to go see what Enhanced Senses has to say.)
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Old 06-23-2023, 08:01 AM   #13
sir_pudding
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Default Re: How would you price the ability to become absolutely silent?

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
The +2/level only applies when you're standing still. It's +1 otherwise.
Presumably if you are silent but it doesn't extend to your environment, moving can still make noise.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 06-24-2023 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 06-23-2023, 09:06 AM   #14
Varyon
 
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Default Re: How would you price the ability to become absolutely silent?

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
The +2/level only applies when you're standing still. It's +1 otherwise.
Arguably, you should be able to take 10 levels of wild-type Silence, then another 10 levels with a "Moving Only" Limitation. Or, rather, Silence currently functions as a general -1 to being heard, and a further +1 with an "Only when stationary" Limitation on it, and you should be able to remove that latter Limitation. "Only when stationary" is probably worth at least -50% (particularly for something like this, where being able to move silently would be extremely useful), meaning the current form of Silence is arguably about 75% of the cost of a general -2 to being heard - or 150% of the cost of a general -1 to being heard. In either case, you're looking at [10/3] per general -1 to being silent; 10 levels of that would cost [100/3], which rounds up to [34].
EDIT: I think Obscure is probably more appropriate as a starting point here, but I do note that this same methodology applied to Chameleon would make you invisible for [34], and would function similarly to Invisibility with Affects Machines, despite being only a bit over half the cost of that. Although I think Invisibility may work for pretty much all wavelengths of light to start with (unless it's from a machine, for some weird reason, hence needing Affects Machines), while Chameleon is like Obscure in that it only works against a specific range - typically visible light. I think two levels of Extended +20% would cover you there (for Infravision and Ultravision), boosting cost to around [47] ([140/3]), which is still a sizable discount compared to Invisibility (Affects Machines +50%) [60].

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Though Stealth already specifies a penalty for moving (-5 when greater than Move 1). Cutting the Silence penalty in half for movement seems like the rules are double-dipping there. And it also seems like Obscure should suffer the same penalty, just for the sake of consistency.
Halving the penalty for Silence occurs with any movement (although personally I'd allow a very slow creeping movement, say 1 yard every 5 seconds, to count as "stationary"), while the -5 to Stealth only applies if you're moving faster than 1 yard/second - an unmoving character with Silence 5 is at -10 to be heard, if the character is instead moving up to 1 yard/second they're at -5 to be heard, and if the character is moving faster than 1 yard/second they're at -5 to be heard but also -5 to Stealth, which is functionally a net +0.

Of course, I think Silence being halved for movement is more to mimic the equivalently-priced Chameleon, where any movement dropping it markedly makes a lot more sense (although, again, I'd probably let a character moving at Move 0.2 or so to get the full benefit).

Of course, now that I look at the traits, they actually give a bonus to Stealth rather than a penalty to being detected. Which is kind of funny, considering RAW lets you give a racial bonus to a particular skill (and honestly, Chameleon and Silence are arguably more appropriate as part of a racial template than as learned Advantages) for only [2] per +1... but I've always felt that trait was broken anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Stealth counters both vision and hearing, and so has its own weirdness when trying to determine a penalty that only affects one of those detecting senses -- here, that -5 is explicitly "to move silently", but of course motion attracts visual detection, too.
I suspect the idea behind fast movement penalizing an attempt to move silently is that the visual part of Stealth assumes you are keeping things between yourself and the target or otherwise only moving when you're out of their line of sight, such that you can't be seen at all - you'd still be invisible in that case even at a full sprint, but you would be easier to hear at such a speed. Personally, I'm inclined - regardless of how ridiculous it seems - to treat characters as typically being able to use Stealth regardless of where cover actually is, much like in a video game (albeit with penalties for an area with minimal cover to make use of), and have the fast-movement penalty apply toward basically all means of detection. Of course, I'm also inclined to allow Stealth to work against senses other than vision and hearing, as well as typically treat the speed aspect as more of an average - a character who is advancing at "Move 1" may actually be alternating between no movement at all and outright sprinting as is appropriate to the situation, but overall they'll be advancing at a rate of only a yard every second (I always think of the video game Thief II: The Metal Age when considering stealth; in that, sometimes it was appropriate - particularly on sound-absorbing surfaces like thick carpet - to outright run between cover, and sometimes you needed to wait for a guard to pass or crawl veeeery slowly; overall your movement speed, if you were being careful, tended to be rather slow).
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Old 06-23-2023, 06:16 PM   #15
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Default Re: How would you price the ability to become absolutely silent?

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Given that -10 is the TDM for "impossible" (notwithstanding cinematically heroic PCs, natch), +10 is "automatic", and that complete darkness / blindness is also -10, wouldn't it be just 5 levels of Silence, at +2 / level, to get that +10? So, comparing costs to 25 points, rather than 50.

You can certainly argue that 10 isn't hard enough / easy enough to make absolute guarantees, but 20 seems like overkill given the RAW precedents.
That's what I would go with. -10 Silence should be the same as -10 darkness (completely blind).

Also, I would NEVER price total silence more, nor even the same, as Invisibility. It HAS to cost LESS. Invisibility is absolutely far better.
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