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Old 01-16-2008, 01:06 PM   #1
Der Wanderer
 
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Default Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

There is a multitude of kicking techniques (Axe Kick; Back Kick; Jump Kick; Push Kick; Spinning Kick; Stamp Kick. I would exclude Drop Kick as this is a Slam and not a Kick) all defaulting to Karate, would it be bad to reduce the penalty by 2 and default it to The Kicking Technique?

Note:
Back Kick -4 equals Kicking -2 + Back Strike -2
Lethal Kick -4 equals Kicking -2 + Lethal Strike -2

Unfortunately with Spinning Kick, Flying Jump Kick it does not break down as nicely.

Like this one could create a true Kicking Master
Perfect Balance
Karate
Technique Mastery (Kicking)
Kicking @ Karate +4
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Old 01-16-2008, 01:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

There is a multitude of kicking techniques (Axe Kick; Back Kick; Jump Kick; Push Kick; Spinning Kick; Stamp Kick. I would exclude Drop Kick as this is a Slam and not a Kick) all defaulting to Karate, would it be bad to reduce the penalty by 2 and default it to The Kicking Technique?
Yes, it would be bad. This is what 3e did, which made it stupidly cheap and easy to be good at every kick in the book. We intentionally wrote this out of the 4e rules. You can reintroduce it, but it will be altogether unbalanced.
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Old 01-16-2008, 02:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Yes, it would be bad. This is what 3e did, which made it stupidly cheap and easy to be good at every kick in the book. We intentionally wrote this out of the 4e rules. You can reintroduce it, but it will be altogether unbalanced.
So there is no balanced way to make someone better at kicking than at punching... *sniff* poor little T-Rex, no MA style for him...

Kicking DX/A
Does not add to punching
Damage: +1/die @ DX+1; +2/die @ DX+2
Parry is Kicking/2 + 1
Parry vs. Kicks and low line attacks is Kicking/2 + 3
If you miss with a Kick roll vs. Kicking or DX to avoid falling (Perfect Balance helps)
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Old 01-16-2008, 04:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Wanderer
... *sniff* poor little T-Rex, no MA style for him...
Eheh! Put bite mastering on him ;-)
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Old 01-17-2008, 12:43 AM   #5
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

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Originally Posted by giganerds
Eheh! Put bite mastering on him ;-)
The problem is that they ate all the dentists... so now they only have kicking left...
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:02 AM   #6
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm
Yes, it would be bad. This is what 3e did, which made it stupidly cheap and easy to be good at every kick in the book. We intentionally wrote this out of the 4e rules. You can reintroduce it, but it will be altogether unbalanced.
Come to think of it, I see almost no Techniques defaulting to other Techniques. Shouldn't there a positive experience transition between many Techniques, particularily between similar kicks?
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:52 AM   #7
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

Various grapplign techniques default from armed grapple...
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Old 01-17-2008, 01:57 AM   #8
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh
Come to think of it, I see almost no Techniques defaulting to other Techniques. Shouldn't there a positive experience transition between many Techniques, particularily between similar kicks?
Finger Lock is the poster child for it. But noteably, it's parent-child, essentially. Finger Locks default from Arm Lock, but not back.

...but it's point-crock reasons that effectively stomp on kicks-defaulting-to-kicks. You at best get a complex spiderweb of kicking defaults (or just "any other kick at minus whatever" as you default) and then everyone buys up one kick because you get better at all of them. Kicking was a must-have technique in 3e, in 4e it's only useful if you intend to do normal, basic kicks fairly often. Give any kick defaults to and from other kicks, and you get that same problem. Unlike Finger Lock, none of the kicks really seem like "children" of other kicks (i.e. you don't seem to need to learn, say, Axe Kick to learn Jump Kick or vice versa). You do need to know basic kicks for advanced kicks to make sense, but that's a default from Karate or Brawling, not from Kicking, if only because of the "master technique" result you get from allowing that.
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:07 AM   #9
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

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Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog
Finger Lock is the poster child for it. But noteably, it's parent-child, essentially. Finger Locks default from Arm Lock, but not back.

...but it's point-crock reasons that effectively stomp on kicks-defaulting-to-kicks. You at best get a complex spiderweb of kicking defaults (or just "any other kick at minus whatever" as you default) and then everyone buys up one kick because you get better at all of them. Kicking was a must-have technique in 3e, in 4e it's only useful if you intend to do normal, basic kicks fairly often. Give any kick defaults to and from other kicks, and you get that same problem. Unlike Finger Lock, none of the kicks really seem like "children" of other kicks (i.e. you don't seem to need to learn, say, Axe Kick to learn Jump Kick or vice versa). You do need to know basic kicks for advanced kicks to make sense, but that's a default from Karate or Brawling, not from Kicking, if only because of the "master technique" result you get from allowing that.
No its not point-crock, its trying to figure out how to make a martial-artis (not necessarly a human one) who is better in Kicking (skill wise not necessarly ST) than punching and this should include all kicks and it should not cost (much) more than the reversed situation where punching is superior to kicking...
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Old 01-17-2008, 02:14 AM   #10
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Default Re: Combining kicking techniques with The Kicking Technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Wanderer
No its not point-crock
We must be using different definitions of point-crock. How is "I buy one Hard technique for 2 points, and get a +1 in all Hard techniques doing something similar; but if I buy all of those other techniques, it costs many times more and gives me less overall benefit" not a point crock? Kicking is a master technique if it allows techniques to default from it, period. The only "crock" of that type allowed is the master skill, which is by design (buy up Karate, all Karate techniques go up), to reduce the need for people to buy laundry lists of techniques to make a fighter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Wanderer
its trying to figure out how to make a martial-artis (not necessarly a human one) who is better in Kicking (skill wise not necessarly ST) than punching and this should include all kicks and it should not cost (much) more than the reversed situation where punching is superior to kicking...
Step 1) Buy Karate or Brawling.
Step 2) Buy Kicking.
Step 3) Buy the Technique Mastery (Kicking) perk for a whopping 1 point.
Step 4) Kick everything.

Who cares if it is more expensive? It's also more effective, kicks do more damage than punches.

If you're really offended by this, make "Kickboxing" or something as an parallel version of Boxing and have at it. Give them a -2 to parry punches (don't train them or how to parry them), make it M/A, give the damage bonuses at DX+1 and DX+2, and reduced defenses against armed attacks and so on. I don't think it's especially useful, but it's not a point crock like Kicking was in 3e.
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