What do Dungeon Fantasy templates lack?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

I started this thread because I realized I'd been dismissing anything labeled "Dungeon Fantasy" as being too focused on its own genre to be worth getting for use in other kinds of games.

Bad idea.

The standalone DF game is sort of GURPS 4.25. It simultaneously simplifies some standard GURPS rules for faster play and incorporates lots of useful rules "crunch" for GMs - notably many new rules for task performance ("Exploits").

Alternately, take a look at the GURPS Action franchise, which is similar to DF but focused on the 1980s-on "muscles and guns" action movie genre. Many rules from DF also appear in Action although the templates and equipment lists are very different.

Others have mentioned what the DF character templates leave out. What they include is very competent characters (250+ points) optimized to use a single skill set. Altering them to model less competent characters is difficult. The various "power up" books for DF add a host of interesting powers, Perks, and Quirks which can easily be adapted to non-DF templates.

[Mr_Sandman]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Others have mentioned what the DF character templates leave out. What they include is very competent characters (250+ points) optimized to use a single skill set. Altering them to model less competent characters is difficult.

Resources for creating less powerful, competent, or experienced characters that fit the DF professions include the DF Henchmen book, the free, fan-created Dungeon Fantasy on the Cheap, and Gaming Balistics’ new Delvers to Grow.

It could be worth looking at those if you want a lower-powered start to a game, especially if you are planning to add points to allow PCs to have more social traits

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

I really think Dungeon Fantasy is a caricature of what most of us have played over the years. I played that other game a good bit in the 80's and 90's and it always had a lot more background and character development than Dungeon Fantasy intimates is normal. It's why I've embraced the Dungeon Fantasy books for what they are and I've decided to ignore the DFRPG.

I agree. Even TSR started moving away from the form of dungeon crawling Dungeon Fantasy during the AD&D2 days (1989-1996). Heck, by the time Dragon #112 (Aug 1986) came out with its "Ultimate Article Index" (21 full pages) there wee already a bucketload of "NPC" classes:

Alchemist (Dragon #2, #45), Anti-Paladin (#39), Archer (#45), Astrologer (#45), Bandits (#63), Bureaucrats and politicians (#74), Cloistered Cleric (#68), Death Master (#76), Duelist (#73), incantatrix (#90), Jester (#60), Mariner (#107), Ninja (#16, #30), Oracle (#53), Plethora of Paladins (#106, every alignment gets its own paladin class), Samurai (#49), Scribe (#3, #62), Sentinel (#89), Smith (#70), Timelords (#65), and Witch (#43)

And yes as crazy as it sounds theses were actual NPC classes with levels, Hit dice, and special class abilities.

Near the end TSR even provided a build your own class system with Player's Option: Skills & Powers (1995)

Come WotC's 3e (2000) and one gets the non adventuring skills Profession which was separate from the more adventure focused Craft skill or the borderline Perform skill.

DFRPG sometimes feels like an emulation of a form of D&D that largely ended with TSR back in 1996...a quarter of a century ago.

Originally Posted by Emerikol

I'm currently working on a major city in my world and I've been thinking about some lens and templates to build NPCs. I might have a program combine them randomly just as an idea generator.

The template-lens combo saves so much space. I just took three already converted Dragonlance elf races and turned them into lens of a master "core" for the GURPSwiki.

[Hide]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

(...) The standalone DF game is sort of GURPS 4.25 (...) lots of useful rules "crunch" for GMs - notably many new rules for task performance ("Exploits") (...) Others have mentioned what the DF character templates leave out. What they include is very competent characters (250+ points) optimized to use a single skill set (...)

This was great advice.

@SilvercatMoonpaw:

A lot of thought has been invested in DF; what templates give you is the textbook definition of each basic character concept. All that’s left is to inject your own feel about the DF campaign/genre into the template. That’s to be expected IMO, because it is a matter of taste and GURPS was built to suit things to your taste; ultimately, this may demand knowledge and experience with the existing options, as well as an avid player or GM.

In my experience, you can easily boost the DF templates with the use of perks, power-ups and talents; these give you a nice edge over the templates and often reduce your budget-tension. Said “add-ons” are not necessarily labeled "Dungeon Fantasy", but they are easy to find; for example: GURPS – Power ups: PERKS or GURPS – Power Ups: TALENTS. The GURPS DF and DFRPG lines also have their own arrangement of books for this purpose, such as GURPS – Dungeon Fantasy: Dungeons.

Another thing that Dungeon Fantasy templates may need is CP to buy "flavor stuff": Things like, "my warrior is great with the long sword, but she also dances like a fairy" or “my barbarian looks like a brute, but he knows how does poetry!”. Such things are not included in the templates very often, because templates usually focus on the job; however, when you tweak the characters trough talents, perks and power ups, you get better chances to color your character sheet.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Hide

Another thing that Dungeon Fantasy templates may need is CP to buy "flavor stuff": Things like, "my warrior is great with the long sword, but she also dances like a fairy" or “my barbarian looks like a brute, but he knows how does poetry!”. Such things are not included in the templates very often, because templates usually focus on the job; however, when you tweak the characters trough talents, perks and power ups, you get better chances to color your character sheet.

This is good advise.

I think the average roleplayer might be interested in at least some fluffy stuff. Something like ~20 points invested in such traits and skills, so long as it's not something to be exploited for dungeon crawling purposes (although I'm sure most people would take these points in good faith). If the GM doesn't want to tack on another 20 on top of the usual 250, the GM might rule that 20 of discretionary Advantage points need to be spent on off-template fluffy stuff. Maybe the Knight likes to do some gardening during his downtime... perhaps he rents a small plot of dirt in Town to grow flowers he can sell as bouquets he arranges himself using Hobby Skill (Flower Arrangement) for small change as per Scoring Extra Cash as mentioned in DF's Dungeons.

[mr beer]

A notable absence from typical fantasy races: no aging/maturity related advantages, disadvantages or features.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

I started this thread because I realized I'd been dismissing anything labeled "Dungeon Fantasy" as being too focused on its own genre to be worth getting for use in other kinds of games. So far they don't sound as focused as I thought: traits mentioned so far strike me as things that I might want to individualize anyway.

I use the DF books a lot for my "medieval 'fantasy' worlds". Some of them a lot more than others. I dont use the DFRPG box, mostly because I just dont subscribe to the vision that they target, Dungeon Delving and nothing else, its just not my thing. Plus there is nothing in DFRPG that isn't in GURPS.

I dont use the prepackaged templates because my worlds are largely mine so a generic template includes or excludes things that dont fit my setting and I rarely run a game that starts at 200+.

I do use a lot of the content in the DF books though, and recommend pretty much all of them for good content and inspiration. Even the templates have value as inspiration. I cant think of one to highlight above others because they are all pretty good for me.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Emerikol

I thought it actually was about playing a traditional fantasy campaign that involved dungeon adventuring.

While that's certainly an option (albeit perhaps with some minor tweaking), GURPS DF is designed for casual gaming with an emphasis on kicking down doors, killing monsters, and taking their stuff.

Originally Posted by Tymathee

This is good advise.

I think the average roleplayer might be interested in at least some fluffy stuff. Something like ~20 points invested in such traits and skills, so long as it's not something to be exploited for dungeon crawling purposes (although I'm sure most people would take these points in good faith). If the GM doesn't want to tack on another 20 on top of the usual 250, the GM might rule that 20 of discretionary Advantage points need to be spent on off-template fluffy stuff. Maybe the Knight likes to do some gardening during his downtime... perhaps he rents a small plot of dirt in Town to grow flowers he can sell as bouquets he arranges himself using Hobby Skill (Flower Arrangement) for small change as per Scoring Extra Cash as mentioned in DF's Dungeons.

My inclination would be to add [25] worth of flavor traits - aka "My character is a person" traits - on top of the existing templates, with said flavor traits to be chosen by the player (although a list of eligible traits might be worthwhile). I feel that would be enough to make any DF character - from a [62] Novice to a [250+] Veteran - fit as an adventurer in most Fantasy settings. Note that's the same value as an Upgrade Module from Delver's to Grow, so in theory you could have it stand in for one of those - although I'd recommend against doing so, and just adding it on top instead.

As you note, said added traits should generally be of no - or at least very little - use to delving.

[Kalzazz]

The biggest thing about DF is it emphasizes extremely well rounded not very out there characters . . . All characters are going to have a lot of different skills including in stuff that may or may not be what the player had in mind. But you are utterly hard forced to make a Very well rounded and well adapted member of society (not counting 50 points of craziness of course)

While there are many choices, some choices are very specific and may not match up with what you want. For instance if you want to roll an Archer, great you can be a Scout. Want to be an Archer who isn't Noodle Arms Nature Boy? Uh, yeah, no

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

But you are utterly hard forced to make a Very well rounded and well adapted member of society (not counting 50 points of craziness of course)

While there are many choices, some choices are very specific and may not match up with what you want. For instance if you want to roll an Archer, great you can be a Scout. Want to be an Archer who isn't Noodle Arms Nature Boy? Uh, yeah, no

So are there better books for that?