TFT vs. GURPS?

[Bill_in_IN]

This thread is not to bring out favor for one game system over the other. It's really to help with my ignorance of GURPS as it pertains to the various references to GURPS in our TFT discussions.

I have not had much exposure to GURPS. We were excited when it first came out in the mid-late 80's. It was basically seen as TFT 2.0 since it had gone out of production in 1984. I bought the basic rules and we generated a handful of characters with different weapons skills. It's my understanding that GURPS has seen some major revisions since then and that may make my memories and perceptions of it obsolete.

We started out like we did for TFT with arena battles--one-on-one and group battles. We liked that it offered more granularity with respect to combat resolution, weapon damage (and 'To Hit' options), and armor effects. But the increase in granularity seemed to bog down combat resolution making more slow and laborious as compared to TFT. We didn't like the separation of ST and Hit Points which was seen as a very D&D thing to do (LOL!). Adding that with the fact that we had been so deeply invested into TFT, we stopped playing it and continued with TFT.

However, we did find that the various adventures that were published for GURPS were far more compatible than the D&D adventures so far as converting them into TFT. So, like D&D, GURPS became a resource for our Classic TFT play.

So, can members here that are far more familiar with GURPS tell me if my perception of GURPS is wrong or outdated? It seems to me that GURPS is still being referenced as a source for pursuing more granularity in ideas for addressing new House Rules. Am I reading the GURPS references in these forums correctly?

[DeadParrot]

Most of my group thinks of TFT as GURPS v0. One did play TFT during its initial release. The rest of us played GURPS first(V3 for me) and picked up TFT during Covid when our in person table top game went on hiatus. Roll20 was our friend plus the fact I had backed the TFT KS at the 'I want it all' level.

The similarities between the two was fairly obvious. It seems the normal growth for game systems is from simple to complex. Compare the white box D&D to later AD&D versions. Or the initial release of Traveller vs the one published today. In this light, TFT vs GURPS seems about the same increase in complexity.

TFT does seem well positioned to take advantage of the Old School Gaming movement. The big hurdle is getting people to try something other then the 6 stat, D20, high roll is good systems.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by DeadParrot

Most of my group thinks of TFT as GURPS v0. One did play TFT during its initial release. The rest of us played GURPS first(V3 for me) and picked up TFT during Covid when our in person table top game went on hiatus. Roll20 was our friend plus the fact I had backed the TFT KS at the 'I want it all' level.

The similarities between the two was fairly obvious. It seems the normal growth for game systems is from simple to complex. Compare the white box D&D to later AD&D versions. Or the initial release of Traveller vs the one published today. In this light, TFT vs GURPS seems about the same increase in complexity.

TFT does seem well positioned to take advantage of the Old School Gaming movement. The big hurdle is getting people to try something other then the 6 stat, D20, high roll is good systems.

I should have also pointed that I had played some D&D (not as a GM) back in the early 80s. It's also my understanding that game system has been through several revisions too.

[Shostak]

GURPS certainly has its origins in TFT, but it more customizable in every respect (there are, for instance more than six different magic systems). Its combat system can be extremely granular, if you want it to be. But it doesn't have to be; the rules offer many options for resolving things, so there are ways to make combat zip right along while still by playing by RAW. But if using the basic combat rules, the addition of active defenses does add a layer that isn't in TFT and thus requires an additional roll. GURPS does cut out the need for an initiative roll and determination of who moves first each turn, though, which I like.

Character generation will almost certainly take a bit longer. GURPS Advantages and Disadvantages are more nuanced than what TFT offers w/Handicaps. And GURPS gives characters more attributes than does TFT, which allows some of the of the nuance that TFT aspires to (like Fatigue being separate from ST). what TFT does with some things (like Missile Weapons and Thrown Weapons) GURPS lets you do with every skill: increase your aptitude with one type of task.

[DeadParrot]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

I should have also pointed that I had played some D&D (not as a GM) back in the early 80s. It's also my understanding that game system has been through several revisions too.

I started with the white box D&D, black box Traveller and the ziplock bag Star Fleet Battles. Oddly, all were in the 5x7 booklet format. All three have since turned into rather hefty versions.

Be careful about adding too many features to your TFT games in search of 'realism'. A Pathfinder 1 game I am in has the PCs at level 20. Combats can take 1 hour per melee round(TFT turn). My play time per round is about 3 minutes. (Too many things can summon other things and Poof, you have 20+ high level things wandering around). I have found myself thinking back to the much faster speed of that Roll20 TFT game.

For our TFT game, we did run separate HP and Fatigue tracks. Another house rule was each wound is separately treatable by a Physicker. IIRC, that one was in one of the early Hexagrams. Both allow much faster recovery after a combat and avoid days of recovery rest after each fight.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

GURPS certainly has its origins in TFT, but it more customizable in every respect (there are, for instance more than six different magic systems). Its combat system can be extremely granular, if you want it to be. But it doesn't have to be; the rules offer many options for resolving things, so there are ways to make combat zip right along while still by playing by RAW. But if using the basic combat rules, the addition of active defenses does add a layer that isn't in TFT and thus requires an additional roll. GURPS does cut out the need for an initiative roll and determination of who moves first each turn, though, which I like.

Character generation will almost certainly take a bit longer. GURPS Advantages and Disadvantages are more nuanced than what TFT offers w/Handicaps. And GURPS gives characters more attributes than does TFT, which allows some of the of the nuance that TFT aspires to (like Fatigue being separate from ST). what TFT does with some things (like Missile Weapons and Thrown Weapons) GURPS lets you do with every skill: increase your aptitude with one type of task.

So, what I'm gathering from the discussion here is that my general perspective with respect to GURPS references is correct. Thanks. I didn't want to read them incorrectly or these discussions would not be beneficial.

I can also see where GURPS may be used to fill in gaps that we run into as we play TFT. It seems that was the intent for GURPS upon its creation.

6 different magic systems has to make wizards very complicated in GURPS.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by DeadParrot

I started with the white box D&D, black box Traveller and the ziplock bag Star Fleet Battles. Oddly, all were in the 5x7 booklet format. All three have since turned into rather hefty versions.

Be careful about adding too many features to your TFT games in search of 'realism'. A Pathfinder 1 game I am in has the PCs at level 20. Combats can take 1 hour per melee round(TFT turn). My play time per round is about 3 minutes. (Too many things can summon other things and Poof, you have 20+ high level things wandering around). I have found myself thinking back to the much faster speed of that Roll20 TFT game.

For our TFT game, we did run separate HP and Fatigue tracks. Another house rule was each wound is separately treatable by a Physicker. IIRC, that one was in one of the early Hexagrams. Both allow much faster recovery after a combat and avoid days of recovery rest after each fight.

I do back off of trying to make things realistic unless what I see is absolutely wrong. Like the Unarmed Combat 1 RAW that says all abilities are lost by simply having something in their hands.

I'm not out to rewrite the game via house rules. I strive to minimize them by working within the current RAW structure. I strive to tweak what is there and not rewrite it. I want my house rules to fit on a page or two. If you are writing books of house rules, then you have created a different game. Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want but it's no longer TFT. It's just a new game that resembles TFT.

[timm meyers]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

I do back off of trying to make things realistic unless what I see is absolutely wrong. Like the Unarmed Combat 1 RAW that says all abilities are lost by simply having something in their hands.

I'm not out to rewrite the game via house rules. I strive to minimize them by working within the current RAW structure. I strive to tweak what is there and not rewrite it. I want my house rules to fit on a page or two. If you are writing books of house rules, then you have created a different game. Nothing wrong with that if that is what you want but it's no longer TFT. It's just a new game that resembles TFT.

100% agree with the dangers of house rules. Too many and it is a new game. I think the rule of 5 can be applied to this situation.

"If you insert more than 5 changes to RAW you are no longer playing TFT" :)

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

6 different magic systems has to make wizards very complicated in GURPS.

I think the expectation is that normally only one would be chosen for any given campaign.

[hcobb]

Wouldn't Dungeon Fantasy be a closer match to ITL than full GURPS is?