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Old 12-09-2022, 01:49 PM   #251
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
I know this is an old thread, but it's still the best place to ask this. What exactly is the difference between Hypersensory and Sense-Based, Reversed? I've been going around in circles in a conversation over this and gotten nowhere. Hypersensory is worth so much more points for seemingly a fairly similar limitation, and the book includes both of them on Detect in different abilities.
The way I see it is that Hypersensory is a modifier for what might be called a parasensory ability: Danger Sense, Empathy, Dark Vision, all that sort of thing. It can be something that the added sense depends on, when it normally wouldn't, which makes it a limitation; or it can be a source of added sensory channels that you can fall back on if the main one is blocked, which makes it an advantage.

On the other hand, Sense-Based, Reversed is a modifier for attack abilities. It says that you can attack by perceiving things. For example, back in the 1950s, Superman (and Superboy) used to use his X-ray vision at high intensity to heat up things he was looking at (later this was renamed "heat vision" and defined as a separate power); that was sort of like an attack power as an AA of a sensory power.

Those are two different cases.
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Old 12-09-2022, 01:52 PM   #252
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
The way I see it is that Hypersensory is a modifier for what might be called a parasensory ability: Danger Sense, Empathy, Dark Vision, all that sort of thing. It can be something that the added sense depends on, when it normally wouldn't, which makes it a limitation; or it can be a source of added sensory channels that you can fall back on if the main one is blocked, which makes it an advantage.

On the other hand, Sense-Based, Reversed is a modifier for attack abilities. It says that you can attack by perceiving things. For example, back in the 1950s, Superman (and Superboy) used to use his X-ray vision at high intensity to heat up things he was looking at (later this was renamed "heat vision" and defined as a separate power); that was sort of like an attack power as an AA of a sensory power.

Those are two different cases.
That makes sense in a vacuum, but then why do some (most) versions of Detect in this book that use one of them use Sense-Based?

Detect+Hypersensory: Diagnostic Scan
Detect+Sense-Based, Reversed: Laser Microphone, Laser Spectrometry, Cutaneous Chemical Sense, Blood Taste, Immune Spectrum Detection
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Old 12-09-2022, 02:33 PM   #253
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
That makes sense in a vacuum, but then why do some (most) versions of Detect in this book that use one of them use Sense-Based?

Detect+Hypersensory: Diagnostic Scan
Detect+Sense-Based, Reversed: Laser Microphone, Laser Spectrometry, Cutaneous Chemical Sense, Blood Taste, Immune Spectrum Detection
Sense-based reversed on detect means that it only works on something that is currently being detected by the relevant mundane sense just as sense-based reversed on an attack means you must be sensing your victim with the relevant sense to hit them. Hypersensory is first of all, not limited to a specific sense, and it specifically makes the detect pseudo-mundane. You are Sherlocking your conclusions.
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Old 12-09-2022, 02:43 PM   #254
awesomenessofme1
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Sense-based reversed on detect means that it only works on something that is currently being detected by the relevant mundane sense just as sense-based reversed on an attack means you must be sensing your victim with the relevant sense to hit them. Hypersensory is first of all, not limited to a specific sense, and it specifically makes the detect pseudo-mundane. You are Sherlocking your conclusions.
Huh? Hypersensory is by definition limited to a specific sense. Or a specific list of them, if that fits the fluff better. I also don't think it explicitly requires the advantage to be pseudo-mundane, it just says that it depends on mundane senses to work.
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Old 12-09-2022, 03:13 PM   #255
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
Huh? Hypersensory is by definition limited to a specific sense. Or a specific list of them, if that fits the fluff better. I also don't think it explicitly requires the advantage to be pseudo-mundane, it just says that it depends on mundane senses to work.
No, its using other senses to boost sensory input.
First line on Enhanced Powers p. 8 it is an "integration".
Powers p. 46 under Dark Vision it talks about building up a mental picture of surroundings using multiple senses.

So Sense-Based, Reversed (Power-Ups 8: Limitations, p. 17 means it requires a specific sense to work (or more than one) based on Sense-Based p. B109.

Sense-Based makes it work through the targets senses (like a blinding light or smell based attack).
Sense-Based, Reversed means the user has to sense the target with a specific sense.
Both of the above are described as Penetration modifiers and usually applied to attacks. Powers does describe it working on things like Detect which is normally an new and independent sense. But if your Detect requires you to say see something than it is blocked by things that block vision - hence its a limitation.

Hypersensory is about integrating multiple senses to get an affect such as Dark Vision (I think this is where it first appeared) or Psychometry, Intuition, etc where you get more out of existing sensory input than others. Or compensating for a blocked sense by using other senses, such as with Dark Vision.
Hypersensory is good for representing Sherlock Holmes, possibly Columbo, etc.

There will be cases where either way will work but each has thier own niche even if there can be some overlap.
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Old 12-09-2022, 07:49 PM   #256
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1 View Post
That makes sense in a vacuum, but then why do some (most) versions of Detect in this book that use one of them use Sense-Based?

Detect+Hypersensory: Diagnostic Scan
Detect+Sense-Based, Reversed: Laser Microphone, Laser Spectrometry, Cutaneous Chemical Sense, Blood Taste, Immune Spectrum Detection
Diagnostic Scan uses a variety of senses - sight, hearing, smell, and touch - to analyze the target; if any of them are blocked, it's at a penalty (-2 per blocked sense), and if all are blocked, it's unusable.

Laser Microphone uses a single sense, LADAR (requiring the appropriate advantage), to detect vibrations (and thus "hear" sounds using the LADAR). Laser Spectrometry also uses LADAR, this time to serve as a spectrometer to analyze the target's chemical composition. Cutaneous Chemical Sense lets you taste things with your sense of touch, rather than needing to put the object in your mouth. Blood Taste lets you analyze blood using your sense of taste. Immune Spectrum Detection lets you notice if someone is having an immune response to something (that is, their body is attempting to fight off an infection or similar) from the way they smell. In all cases, there's only one sense (beyond the Detect itself) involved, meaning if it gets blocked the ability is rendered unusable... but because only one sense is involved, you only need that one sense (someone tied up, blindfolded, and with earplugs is at -6 to use Diagnostic Scan, but can use Immune Spectrum Detection without issue). Does that justify the former having a -40% Limitation and the latter having only a -20%? I'm not certain.

I'm also not entirely clear on what the "blocking one sense blocks the ability" version works as. Is this something where the character has multiple senses involved and blocking any one of them blocks the ability, or something where you choose one specific sense - say, Sight - and the ability becomes unusable if that sense is blocked? If it's the latter, I agree with awesomenessofme1 that it doesn't makes sense for that to be -80% while Sight-Based, Reversed is only -20%, as they seem indistinguishable. Or is it meant to be that - as is implied by the -80% being justified as similar to an alternative ability - that when you are using an ability that has Hypersensory, you lose the associated sense(s)? That is, if you're using Diagnostic Scan, you will fail to see, hear, smell, or feel anything unrelated to the scan (that would certainly justify the higher Limitation value!).
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Old 12-09-2022, 08:09 PM   #257
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Default Re: GURPS Powers: Enhanced Senses

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Diagnostic Scan uses a variety of senses - sight, hearing, smell, and touch - to analyze the target; if any of them are blocked, it's at a penalty (-2 per blocked sense), and if all are blocked, it's unusable.

Laser Microphone uses a single sense, LADAR (requiring the appropriate advantage), to detect vibrations (and thus "hear" sounds using the LADAR). Laser Spectrometry also uses LADAR, this time to serve as a spectrometer to analyze the target's chemical composition. Cutaneous Chemical Sense lets you taste things with your sense of touch, rather than needing to put the object in your mouth. Blood Taste lets you analyze blood using your sense of taste. Immune Spectrum Detection lets you notice if someone is having an immune response to something (that is, their body is attempting to fight off an infection or similar) from the way they smell. In all cases, there's only one sense (beyond the Detect itself) involved, meaning if it gets blocked the ability is rendered unusable... but because only one sense is involved, you only need that one sense (someone tied up, blindfolded, and with earplugs is at -6 to use Diagnostic Scan, but can use Immune Spectrum Detection without issue). Does that justify the former having a -40% Limitation and the latter having only a -20%? I'm not certain.

I'm also not entirely clear on what the "blocking one sense blocks the ability" version works as. Is this something where the character has multiple senses involved and blocking any one of them blocks the ability, or something where you choose one specific sense - say, Sight - and the ability becomes unusable if that sense is blocked? If it's the latter, I agree with awesomenessofme1 that it doesn't makes sense for that to be -80% while Sight-Based, Reversed is only -20%, as they seem indistinguishable. Or is it meant to be that - as is implied by the -80% being justified as similar to an alternative ability - that when you are using an ability that has Hypersensory, you lose the associated sense(s)? That is, if you're using Diagnostic Scan, you will fail to see, hear, smell, or feel anything unrelated to the scan (that would certainly justify the higher Limitation value!).
That wouldn't make sense, though, at least not the way you've phrased it. If "you fail to see, here, smell, or feel anything unrelated to the scan", it being through more senses would be more limiting, not less.
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