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Old 12-23-2005, 11:34 AM   #11
ericbsmith
 
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
I'll agree that it's campaign specific, but it's easy to mitigate as well.

Quick gadgeteers don't need a lab at all, and the others may don't need to go home they just need a lab.
You shouldn't allow one advantage to completely mitigate the limitations of another. If this Cosmic Pool requires a Lab, it requires a Lab, period. If it doesn't require a Lab (because of Gadgeteer) then the limitation should be disallowed in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Furthermore, there's nothing to stop the PCs from frequent trips home - even from having a Warp gadget (to go home whenever they need to) or to travel with a lab in a truck/semi.
True, but both of those options have their own drawbacks (Warp isn't automatic, a truck makes a big target, etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
Being forced to take gadget limitations doesn't seem as limiting as "attacks only" or "body parts only." It's more on par with the -10% "advantages only" or "skills only," especially since you're already taking credit for "only gadgets -5%" and gadget limitations on the ability itself.
Oh, Powers specifically allows Trait-Limited "Advantages with Gadget Limitations" at -20%. OTOH, the focus-limit isn't for the Gadget limitation, but rather for "available spare parts" which definately steps on the "requires lab" limitation. So, basically, the "Requires Lab" is the Focus limitation, and the -5% "Limited Focus, Superscience Gadgets" should be dropped.
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Last edited by ericbsmith; 12-23-2005 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 12-23-2005, 11:36 AM   #12
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith
You shouldn't allow one advantage to completely mitigate the limitations of another. If this Cosmic Pool requires a Lab, it requires a Lab, period. If it doesn't require a Lab (because of Gadgeteer) then the limitation should be disallowed in the first place.
Perhaps, but reading the text description sounds like you can mitigate it for another 25 points (quick gadgeteer).

Quote:
Oh, Powers specifically allows Trait-Limited "Advantages with Gadget Limitations" at -20%.
Missed that... It certainly doesn't seem like much of a limitation. "You can do build anything, but you'll have to take certain limitations. Sure, you get that discount too."

Quote:
OTOH, the focus-limit isn't for the Gadget limitation, but rather for "available spare parts" which definately steps on the "requires lab" limitation. So, basically, the "Requires Lab" is the Focus limitation, and the -5% "Limited Focus, Superscience Gadgets" should be dropped.
Sounds good to me.
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Old 12-23-2005, 02:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

1. I see the point about the Limited: Superscience and Requires Lab overlapping, though I must disagree. The Accessibility is a physical requirement -- you cannot build a gadget unless you're in one of these specific, special places. The Limited: Focus is a limitation on what sort of things you can put your points into, not where you can do it. It's "a focus which amounts to a special effect", which is to say you cannot build anything that cannot be rationalized as a super-scientific gadget. That's a small restriction (hence being only -5%), but it is a restriction -- the GM is free to say, "That's not superscience -- it's literal magic. Rationalize it better or you can't build it."

2. Takes Extra Time is both canonical and appropriate -- Powers specifically recommends it as a way to increase the time to rearrange the points in a Modular Ability. (And Basic mentions Preparation Required. Both are completely valid, which is what Powers hopefully made clear.) Note that I compared TET and PR -- the latter gives you less of a point break, but also does not translate to "Work on this for a while -- if you get interrupted, you have to start over -- when you're done, the gadget is ready." That's TET. PR is "Work on this for a while -- when you're done, you can wade into battle and decide later what your gadget is." PR is good for simulating gadgeteers who can pull out "Super Gizmos", which isn't what I was going for here.

3. Hopefully it's clear that this is the ability to create things that cannot be Gizmos -- Mind Control Rays, Hoops of Dimension Travel, a laser weapon with unlimited charges that can shoot someone on the other side of the planet, etc. These are things that no Gadgeteer can build with scrap metal and cash -- they have to be built as "super gadgets", by which I mean advantages with Gadget limitations. If that isn't clear, I'd like to make it more obvious -- any suggestions on doing so?

4. I would hate to penalize Gadgeteers by making them pay more for an ability because they bought an Advantage. Gadgeteer lets a character do lab work in less-than-ideal situations; I'm merely acknowledging that, not making it part of the Gadget Pool. It's no different than someone's Charisma aiding them with the Requires Reaction Roll limitation. If someone buys their DX up to 18, you don't give them less of a point break on Requires DX Roll. So I don't see why I should tell a Quick Gadgeteer that he doesn't get to use the advantage that he paid 50 points for.

Besides, I'd say that "Requires a Radio Shack" is still worth close to -40%, compared to other Accessibilities like "Only when flying" (-30%)! It's a lot more limiting to tell someone they have to find an appropriate place and stay in one spot, working, vulnerable to attack, and holding up the rest of the group... as opposed to letting them do it "on the fly" (heh), so every time the group takes off for a new destination, the inventor arrives with a new Super Gadget in hand. (IOW, I think we can agree that having to track down a suitable place, of which there may not even be one in the city, must be more limiting than say, having to run around the block a few times.)

Does that make sense?
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Old 12-23-2005, 03:02 PM   #14
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

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Originally Posted by roguebfl
I though Gizmos could be used for any invetion you have done, mundane or not depends on the type and genre of Gadgetter you're playing
But you cannot invent a Mind Control Ray. Such things cannot be built at any TL. "Super Gadget" is a term GURPS has always used to refer to buying an advantage with Gadget limitations, so you can build an "impossible" invention. Is that not clear from my text?
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Old 12-23-2005, 03:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

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Originally Posted by ericbsmith
Normally points can be reallocated in a Cosmic Pool without any restrictions (except time). -40% to be required to go back to your lab in the middle of an adventure seems reasonable, if not underpriced.
Hopefully I made it clear that you can use any appropriate lab -- but you're not likely to find a multi-million dollar, cutting-edge, dedicated electrical engineering lab around the corner of every town. Gadgeteers can work under easier circumstances, of course, but the real limitation here is, "You must find an appropriate place to work, which might require you going home, and you have to stay there until you're done. If the bad guys attack, oh well, you cannot take your work with you." That's definitely worth -40% even if I phrased it as "Requires the back room of a fast-food restaurant." :)
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Last edited by PK; 12-23-2005 at 03:26 PM. Reason: Fixed a tag
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Old 12-23-2005, 03:09 PM   #16
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

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Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty
But you cannot invent a Mind Control Ray. Such things cannot be built at any TL. "Super Gadget" is a term GURPS has always used to refer to buying an advantage with Gadget limitations, so you can build an "impossible" invention. Is that not clear from my text?
Um you Can....

"The item should not actually violate physcial laws (...) unless the GM rules that such "superscience" is possible in the game world." (B475). [empsis as in book]

So Gadgetters can build a Super Gadget, the that said super gadge cant exist all in the Campain. basic if a Mind control laser with the Gadget limit is avialle in the world, the Supersice rules are in effect. if you have already made one, hence own one, Gizmos work for it.
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Last edited by roguebfl; 12-23-2005 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 12-23-2005, 07:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty
Hopefully I made it clear that you can use any appropriate lab -- but you're not likely to find a multi-million dollar, cutting-edge, dedicated electrical engineering lab around the corner of every town. Gadgeteers can work under easier circumstances, of course, but the real limitation here is, "You must find an appropriate place to work, which might require you going home, and you have to stay there until you're done. If the bad guys attack, oh well, you cannot take your work with you." That's definitely worth -40% even if I phrased it as "Requires the back room of a fast-food restaurant." :)
I see being able to go home and work at odds with "something that is useful in an emergency" which is what takes extra time is suppose to represent. I would but "useless under stress" for -60% w/Prep required.

Preparation required is vague on whether or not it can be interrupted. I would suggest that medition or building something can, but since you're interrupted it ends up taking longer. Magic rituals usually cannot be interrupted.

In any case, I cannot see why 15 minutes of constant work (-100%) is that much worse than having to spend about 6 hours of total work (-40%).
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:01 PM   #18
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
In any case, I cannot see why 15 minutes of constant work (-100%) is that much worse than having to spend about 6 hours of total work (-40%).
Because with the -100%, you have to spend the time immediately, when you want to change your pool. With the -40%, you can spend the time whenever it's convenient, then at some point in the future, you can change your pool however you want in a matter of seconds. Do you really not see anything that makes the latter much more attractive than the former?

The latter allows you to keep your ability "ready" until whenever you want to use it, which means that you can always customize the gadget to your current situation without any extra time needed. A lava man appears out of nowhere? Great! Guess what? My gadget is an ice ray! Haha...

Meanwhile, the guy who had Takes Extra Time on his gadget has to return to the lab and start over from square one if he wants an ice ray. Half an hour later, he returns, and the battle's already over.

That's why one is a helluva lot more of a limitation than the other.
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Old 12-23-2005, 08:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty
The latter allows you to keep your ability "ready" until whenever you want to use it, which means that you can always customize the gadget to your current situation without any extra time needed. A lava man appears out of nowhere? Great! Guess what? My gadget is an ice ray! Haha...
I see how you're playing it now.

I consider it explicit that you state what you were preping for. I wouldn't consider "oh, yeah I'm preping so that I can do anything with whenever I want" a limitation at all. You can consider that you're preping for changing points. I consider it preping for a specific gadget. I might buy into the idea that your prep time for the freeze ray is also useful for another ray or ice related gadget, but not "sure I've been working on the freeze ray, but I turned it into a teleporter at the last second."

Being able to change your points instantly then waiting for a while is more of "Takes recharge (must go back to lab and reconfigure universal widget)" than "Requires Prep (prepped a universal widget)."

Anyway, it's more of a difference of opinion. I don't allow lots of levels of Takes Extra Time when it's clear you wouldn't be using that ability during a crunch time whereas this ability is rooted in the notion that you will be able to take time out and go design something.
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Old 12-24-2005, 12:07 AM   #20
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Default Re: Cosmic Pools for "Super Gadgeteers"

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth
I see how you're playing it now.

I consider it explicit that you state what you were preping for.
I don't believe that's explicit at all, no. In fact, it states: "You can use a prepared ability normally -- either immediately or at a later time (...) if your ability has continuing effects, you can maintain them once activated."

In other words, the difference between Takes Extra Time and Preparation Requires is (by definition) that Prep Req lets you "charge" your ability up and then make use of it later on. Otherwise, why would anyone take it when they would get a better point break from Takes Extra Time?

Anyways, "using" your Cosmic Pool has nothing to do with making use of whatever traits you bought with it. "Using" a Cosmic Pool refers to rearranging the points in it to buy new stuff. Thus, Prep Req allows you to "use" the pool later on, once -- i.e., to rearrange your points as you wish.

If you want to interpret it otherwise, fine -- but then, why would anyone in your game ever take Prep Req when it's canonically (explicitly) allowed to use Takes Extra Time instead?

Quote:
I wouldn't consider "oh, yeah I'm preping so that I can do anything with whenever I want" a limitation at all.
So, a character with Preparation Required, 8 Hours, has to spend 8 hours every single time he wants to change his Cosmic Pool, and that's not a limitation? The fact that he can change it "on the fly" after he's put in the time makes it less of one than Takes Extra Time, sure, but it's still a solid limitation.

I respect your opinion, but I believe you're interpreting Preparation Required differently than it was intended.
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