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Old 07-22-2021, 09:15 AM   #11
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Cost to cast spells as a service

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
It's important not to impose modern values on fantasy wizards. In our world, we're all programmed to believe that time = money. I doubt that would be true for casters in a world using the GURPS Magic system.
To be fair, that is the way LTC3 handles things. That said, I have no issues with settings that don't handle things this way - while I prefer my settings to follow this line of thought (because it's easy to work with for me, conceptually), it's hardly the only way to go. This is particularly true of DF, where I generally assume the NPC Mage's Guild (possibly including their "black market" branch) is able to do things differently from PC mages, Because Reasons.

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But I'd still wager that the dominant consideration would not be, "How much is my time worth?", but rather, "How much is my discomfort worth?" That is, wizardly pay is less about wages in the conventional sense and more like inconvenience pay or a meal allowance – or if burning HP, danger pay or medical coverage.
That makes a good deal of sense, yeah. Jobs that burn through a decent amount of FP are often either low-paying and targeted toward desperate people (like unskilled brute labor) or high-paying and targeted toward elites, with intangible rewards beyond mere wages (like professional sports). Magic work would be targeted toward elites, but seems like it wouldn't have the same sort of intangible rewards (plus it's probably even more exhausting - and likely not pleasantly exhausting, like playing sports can be), so there's cause for an even higher rate of pay. Or lower, if mages are relatively common (or underprivileged thanks to some flavor of Fantastic Racism), at which point it may be more akin to that unskilled labor from above - as you say, it's very setting-dependent.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:15 AM   #12
awesomenessofme1
 
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Default Re: Cost to cast spells as a service

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Ultimately, "wizard" should not be seen as a job paid a wage or salary in most cases. It would be closer to a modern-day gig worker or contractor:

Here's a gig. Bid low to secure it. Work fast and do your best work to build a reputation that means you're offered more gigs for which you needn't bid as low. Eventually get exclusive premium work from private patrons. Profit.

Dividing earnings by the time won't yield sensible results. Obviously, there will also be "staff wizards" with regular pay . . . but those will be rare sinecures.
Weeeell, it is worth noting that "Wizards are paid based on a modern work week" is the assumption used to determine enchantment costs in Magic. So it's not like there's not precedent.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:21 AM   #13
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Default Re: Cost to cast spells as a service

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To be fair, that is the way LTC3 handles things.
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Weeeell, it is worth noting that "Wizards are paid based on a modern work week" is the assumption used to determine enchantment costs in Magic. So it's not like there's not precedent.
I'm saying that I think the precedents are wrong. In the case of the Low-Tech series, the supplements are fine but applying them to wizards is wrong; those supplements are looking at realistic workers in settings that mostly don't have FP-burning magic. In the case of Magic, it's due to a 35-year-old rule that dates to some author before my time trying to bang a square peg (FP-burning magic) into a round hole (a generic monthly job system created for realistic jobs) being propagated into a new edition that didn't ever cross my desk for editing or review.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:29 AM   #14
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Default Re: Cost to cast spells as a service

Which said, bear in mind that it's probably fine to treat Slow and Sure enchanting as an ordinary job, because it doesn't burn people out physically. Where it gets foggy is for Quick and Dirty enchanting, and ordinary casting as a service. Those things are way closer to tiring and/or dangerous gig work than a reliable way to earn a living at a day job.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:38 AM   #15
Emerikol
 
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Default Re: Cost to cast spells as a service

It's supply and demand. How many wizards are there? How much demand is there?

Without mass production, many things are different. The wizard wants to make reasonable money and if demand is low but he is the only meeter of that demand then the price might in fact be higher. He has to make enough to take care of his downtime.

So I could see the prices in a small town or village being far higher than in a big city. But wait, in a village, who can pay the high price. Practically nobody. Right? Can a peasant pay three months wages? So the mage will want to price discriminate. If a wealthy looking group of adventurers wander into the village that is the time to make hay because the peasant level profit is only so so.

On the other hand if this area is chock full of adventures and a bunch of mages are competing for that business then the price may drop.

So many factors. Even with some default value, I'd make a table of modifiers that (much like limitations) that will up or decrease by some percentage the price. Part of this likely comes from the City Stat info.

Also if on the "adventuring" frontier, where hoards of gold is being brought into town all the time, inflation will drive the prices sky high. So there is that factor too.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:45 AM   #16
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Also if on the "adventuring" frontier, where hoards of gold is being brought into town all the time, inflation will drive the prices sky high. So there is that factor too.
Even there . . . adventurers can generally cast most of the spells they need. It's usually cheaper and easier just to learn a spell they don't know – possibly free, if the GM follows the by-the-book guidelines that all you need are the right prerequisites and a character point. So, the market is mostly the local non-adventurers, who may or may not be rich.

Really, the whole model of professional adventurers who hunt treasures left out in the world by mad wizards, lost civilizations, and random gods, and live outside the social structure of civilization, trashes sensible economic analyses. Magic just makes it worse. This is one area where appeals to the real world won't help you much.
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Old 07-22-2021, 09:57 AM   #17
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Really, the whole model of professional adventurers who hunt treasures left out in the world by mad wizards, lost civilizations, and random gods, and live outside the social structure of civilization, trashes sensible economic analyses. Magic just makes it worse. This is one area where appeals to the real world won't help you much.
Well your going for "feels" right and not really right or you'd give up roleplaying all together I'd think.

But more people got rich selling supplies to prospectors during the gold rush than the prospectors did on average. So that was the way I was viewing it.
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Old 07-22-2021, 10:56 AM   #18
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It's important not to impose modern values on fantasy wizards. In our world, we're all programmed to believe that time = money. I doubt that would be true for casters in a world using the GURPS Magic system. The real cost there isn't time, but energy. When that energy is FP, there's a strong-if-implicit assumption that regaining it requires rest, food, water, shelter, and good health; i.e., calories = money (well, opportunity cost), much as in the natural world. That is what your wizard is going to be charging for.
That's only ten minutes (or less) of time per fp, so you could make the equivalent of an Average wealth job for less than $1 per fp (or you can pay an apprentice to know lend energy). The thing that will really drive prices up is opportunity cost: learning a spell is not a small amount of effort, so wizards aren't going to bother learning spells that are rarely cast unless they can charge enough to make it worth their while.
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Old 07-22-2021, 12:52 PM   #19
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In the case of Magic, it's due to a 35-year-old rule that dates to some author before my time trying to bang a square peg (FP-burning magic) into a round hole (a generic monthly job system created for realistic jobs) being propagated into a new edition that didn't ever cross my desk for editing or review.
Maybe, but you wrote at least a important part of 4th Ed Basic Set and also got Banestorm and Fantasy 4th Ed. on your desk, and that books have templates which give a enchanter for example a certain income / wealth level. Of course the whole standard magic system is decades old, and for the time being had loopholes but was for the assumed scenario well balanced. The problems arise if you get a high tech environment or create a world which may use Ultra tec and psi but also standard magery than a lot of problems arise.
Imho the creator of the standard magic system just looked at a low tech scenario and fitted it for this.

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That's only ten minutes (or less) of time per fp, so you could make the equivalent of an Average wealth job for less than $1 per fp (or you can pay an apprentice to know lend energy). The thing that will really drive prices up is opportunity cost: learning a spell is not a small amount of effort, so wizards aren't going to bother learning spells that are rarely cast unless they can charge enough to make it worth their while.
It really depends on 2 things the mana level, a low magic scenario makes it real hard to cast time after time a mage nneds here to be fit and extra FP won´t hurt. The other question is can other things than mages and power stones be used to feed spells with energy. If you use the rules from technomancer for converting electrical power to FP for spells even big enchantments can be cast quick and dirty with the prices dropping heavily.

One thing is clear a mage has to live from something, he has a special talent and took a lot of time to bring his spells to a useful and reliable level. If we use the standard 200h = 1 CP rule even a low level hedge wizard put month into learning just one spell and he needs at least a handful to make a living.

But the supplement urban magics deals with some of the problems, but others are still unsolved.
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Old 07-22-2021, 02:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: Cost to cast spells as a service

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Magic work would be targeted toward elites, but seems like it wouldn't have the same sort of intangible rewards (plus it's probably even more exhausting - and likely not pleasantly exhausting, like playing sports can be), so there's cause for an even higher rate of pay.
As an aside, that brings up some interesting roleplay possibilities for mages. What's the difference in attitude if casting a spell is like digging a ditch vs going ten minutes on the basketball court?

In any case, this thread is a gem.
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