GURPS News updated

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

Dungeon Fantasy just isn't something I need GURPS for: I've already got too many games for it.

Which underlines another puzzle for us:

Hack 'n' slash fantasy is where most of the earning potential resides in pen-and-paper RPGs – there are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. The next two or three genres combined don't add up to it. So, a generic game has to have major offerings there or it'll be judged and found wanting, hurting its chances with fans of all genres.

On the other hand, yes, everybody does hack 'n' slash fantasy, so the competition is fierce. Also, people are often interested in a generic game because they want to get away from that genre.

It's a bit unwinnable.

On the creative side, I am most interested in hack 'n' slash fantasy, cinematic action, and supernatural horror – and somewhat interested in dystopian Earth-based sci-fi and the sort of post-apocalyptic stories that have mutants and road warriors – and that's about it as far as gaming genres go. I can be convinced to play in one or two other genres, but not to run much less write content for them. I have nearly zero interest in gaming out realistic history, space sci-fi, supers, war stories, or the sorts of post-apocalyptic tales with preppers and resource management. I rely on our freelancers to support the stuff I'm bad at . . . I don't have the chops to pick up the slack. This is why, when I write, it's stuff like GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, GURPS Action, or GURPS Zombies, or maybe an article like "Deathball" or "Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes."

And yes, it's no coincidence that the genres I like have low realism and privilege style over research. I enjoy sitting down, making stuff up, not sweating the details, and waxing a little gonzo. I don't enjoy poring over reference works, getting everything right down to the last decimal place. In part because in this business, nobody gets paid enough to do that.

[edk926]

This really reads like SJ Games has reached the point where they need to start working on a GURPS 5e (4.5e?). This is a general reinvention and not simply a refocus. The crunchy can stay at 4e. The new wave can enter at 5e. Then they wouldn't have to sift through almost 2 decades of supplements looking for the ones that wouldn't bog them down.

[Christopher R. Rice]

I'm an avowed cruncher too - I write crunch, I like crunch, I use it in my games, etc. But I can get behind good settings too - as long as they have good crunch to support the fluff. Adventures too. So there's that. One thing I think is firmly gone are the days of "GURPS is a sourcebook". Wikipedia has enough useful information (as do other sites) that it's "good enough" for gaming for most folks. This makes me sad as hell.

I do hope this means we still get SOME crunch instead of NONE though.

Ah well. Change or die.

[Michael Thayne]

It seems to me that there's a pretty big ambiguity here between "light on crunch" and "simplified crunch"—really too totally different and in some ways opposite things. The former suggests more Infinite Worlds and Hot Spots titles, the latter suggests more Dungeon Fantasy, Action, etc. But while GURPS has a well-deserved reputation for well-researched and/or highly imaginative world books, I'm not sure they're as newbie friendly as they seem. Going light on crunch is really just forcing GMs to invent the crunch. Simplifying the crunch, on the other hand, requires the sort of attention to game-mechanical detail that Kromm now seems to be pooh-poohing. So I'm not quite sure what to make of some of the things he's saying, in terms of what it means for the future of GURPS.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by edk926

This really reads like SJ Games has reached the point where they need to start working on a GURPS 5e (4.5e?). This is a general reinvention and not simply a refocus. The crunchy can stay at 4e. The new wave can enter at 5e. Then they wouldn't have to sift through almost 2 decades of supplements looking for the ones that wouldn't bog them down.

If you design a game that's too different from 4e then SJ Games can't tempt you to buy a few 4e supplements any more.

[Christopher R. Rice]

I didn't see Sean saying "No crunch from now on and forever!" Just that less is probably more in the eyes of the PTB. He's got a rough job, y'all. Everything he does for GURPS and more...he deserves our support. We need to support him.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Going light on crunch is really just forcing GMs to invent the crunch. Simplifying the crunch, on the other hand, requires the sort of attention to game-mechanical detail that Kromm now seems to be pooh-poohing. So I'm not quite sure what to make of some of the things he's saying, in terms of what it means for the future of GURPS.

I'm saying, "If the crunch is truly necessary, have it but keep it simple. If it isn't truly necessary, leave it to GMs to invent." Nobody really, truly needs 200-300 pages on vehicle design . . . sorry, but no, they don't. A good stats gamut and some editorial oversight on what does and doesn't make sense, for vehicles or for anything, is good enough. As soon as it crosses the line into "voluminous mini-game all on its own," it's off the rails of what's likely to sell to the majority of customers of the main game.

GURPS has often been guilty of wandering off into mini-games about its mini-games, which has attracted gamers who want Verniers on their Verniers. Consequently, that kind of writing and fan discussion has become the brand. The problem is that it's a hard brand to sell.

The First, Second, and early Third Edition GURPS brand – lots of world material, rules ad-libbed in sidebars, relative few construction systems, nothing close to later Third or Fourth Edition's power or vehicle builds – was easier to sell. That was the period when GURPS was most popular in terms of units sold and return on investment. Later material was certainly more popular in terms of fan discussion, but that doesn't translate into benefits for SJ Games' bottom line.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

I didn't see Sean saying "No crunch from now on and forever!" Just that less is probably more in the eyes of the PTB.

I never meant to suggest that—though maybe we're operating on different definitions of "crunch". By my understanding of the word, Dungeon Fantasy is full of crunch—but that doesn't mean it isn't "ready to use". But maybe what Kromm means is stuff that isn't at all ready to use, like Powers and Thaumatology.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Still, that doesn't quite explain why people want to go off tweaking things to death. That's a specific behavior of a specific generation of gamers. Plenty of CRPG players are entirely happy to pick one of a few classes, tweak one of a small handful of variables, and spend most of their "character creation" efforts on customizing the visuals of their avatar and then collecting gear in play.

That's because writing game mods is much much harder than writing up house rules, not because people don't want to tweak things; if you look at gaming boards there always an endless cascade of "Hey, class X should really play like Y" suggestions.

On the topic of crunch: I must say that my tolerance for fiddly bits of math has gone down over the years, in large part because it feels like false precision: the system simply isn't accurate enough for 5% modifiers to be worth tracking.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

That's because writing game mods is much much harder than writing up house rules, not because people don't want to tweak things; if you look at gaming boards there always an endless cascade of "Hey, class X should really play like Y" suggestions.

Certainly. However, the designers rarely act on that, and the games continue to sell anyway. The percentage of customers sounding off on their forums is quite tiny relative to total sales.