Un-nerfed Mages

[PoweredByCoffee]

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger..." (LOTR) unless there are 10,000 Orks sieging the city. :) In my campaign, more experienced mages are like demigods. During the empire age of man, they held the line of Orkish advance.

Clever use of spells and uber spell combos just don't go far enough in this case. Mages lack the raw horsepower I'm looking for in GURPS. (This is not an attack on GURPS, just an observation.) GURPS is more concerned about balance.. Hmm.. Perhaps I should simply change my backdrop a little. Perhaps it was several mages who worked together to cast larger spells. I.e. As an example, Great Healing costs 20 points to cast. Obviously it would take some powerstones or mages working together to make that happen. Perhaps several mages need to work together to cast a mega fireball..

Again, thanks for your help.

[Extrarius]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

[...]Clever use of spells and uber spell combos just don't go far enough in this case.[...]

If GURPS Magic isn't your flavor, get GURPS Powers and use that for magic. It won't have nearly the versatility for the same price, but you can make universe-shattering attacks for ~50 points. For example, M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N.

[PoweredByCoffee]

Originally Posted by Extrarius

If GURPS Magic isn't your flavor, get GURPS Powers and use that for magic. It won't have nearly the versatility for the same price, but you can make universe-shattering attacks for ~50 points. For example, M.U.N.C.H.K.I.N.

Yeah, that's definitely an idea, but I'd prefer to say on the magic path.. Powers are more engrained... Many people mentioned innate attack, but that's again not magic in a general sense. It's more like a bandaid. In GURPS, the idea of an old, but power mage is ... well ... sort of rediculous. He will certainly be skilled, but as you age, your ST, HT, and DX start dropping. The best mage is a very intelligent, young, workout-a-holic with insanely high HT... Because of that he will also be VERY hard to kill (HT roles and all that)... It's a bit comical.

I really think that S John's unlimited mana may be the way to go. It's exactly the game effect I'm looking for. I just don't want to worry about tracking the recovery of points.

[Paul]

In my Banestorm campaign, I use the "Influencing Success Rolls" optional rules on p.347, and am generous with the CP rewards. As a result, the mages in the group can cast the most exhausting spell possible, spend the point(s) to upgrade the roll to a critical success, and do it all over again next turn -- for as long as their CP stash holds out.

It's a solution that wouldn't work for everyone, but it's an idea, and it definately makes the mages more powerful.

(I should note, however, that they still spend a good number of rolls on Movement spells like Quick March -- "Must catch up with the Archbishop's imposter!" -- or Great Haste -- "Time to buff the sword!sperson!")

[Mark Caliber]

I was in a campaign in which we used the S John Ross Umana rules as well as the standard rules. (The GM by fiat made mid campaign edicts, which had the benefit of allowing us players to SEE first hand the effects, pros, and cons to both systems.)

He, too, was trying to run a high magic campaign where a mage not only COULD go toe to toe with a warrior type, but was expected to win most of the time.

You have a point in the fact that the standard fatigue rules tend to severely limit a mage during a highly prolonged encounter. BUT, if you have some high level (15+) mages running around there are still spells that you can run for free.

Also remember that a combatant looses fatigue in relation to their encumberance at the end of a fight. (Enc+1 IIRC.) THis means that if the Lightly encumbered fighter takes on 4 waves of any given enemy without the opportunity to rest, his fatigue will be reduced by 8!

Umana was nice in the fact that we could cast some high level spells once in a while. (Our limits for the campaign were 40 points with a refresh rate of 8 per day.) By itself, U-mana was HIGHLY limiting and gave the mages a "DnD" kind of feel where, "I cast my one 12 mana Explosive Fireball and . . . Opps! THat's my limit."

In the end we ended up using both systems simultaneously (with a top limit of 30 points with recovery of 8 per day.) As a mage you had two sources to tap into. Overall this was an ideal solution for our characters and we found ourselves ussually tapping into fatigue first (as you could recover it more quickly) and we still had the ability to cast 15 and 20 point spells, occasionally without completely fracturing the magic system.

THe cool thing about the U-mana concept (in your case) is that you can have this "technique" of tapping mana taught to the character after the fact.

As a counterpoint all of our mages were highly trained and highly capeable, unlike your player who's "just learning the craft." The trick into getting him powerful is to get his spell skill above 15. My immediate thought was to somehow artificially increase his magery by 5. This could be done with a magical artifact or a mid campaign fudge.

Everyone else have already made some awesome points and I also endorse most of the thoughts already listed. I agree with you that the concept of "inate attacks" would not be in keeping with your intended goal.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Paul

In my Banestorm campaign, I use the "Influencing Success Rolls" optional rules on p.347, and am generous with the CP rewards. As a result, the mages in the group can cast the most exhausting spell possible, spend the point(s) to upgrade the roll to a critical success, and do it all over again next turn -- for as long as their CP stash holds out.

I'm getting good results with that rule in my campaign, too. The PC of a player who earns 100 points that she spends only on sure successes and critical successes ends up coming across as just as powerful in play as a PC who went for 100 points in permanent improvements. In a lot of ways, she comes across as more powerful, since her great victories always come at dramatically crucial moments (i.e., when she wants and/or really needs them), while the hero with the higher permanent point total might be more consistently impressive at the little things yet fall victim to a natural 18 on the "save the universe" roll and end his career in ignominy. Burning a few points to make that Resurrection spell a critical success that costs 0 FP and bring back a dead comrade sure seems more powerful than having three extra spells that you can't afford the FP to cast . . . and if it's the Grand Duke that you raise, you might get more points back in free Status and Wealth than you spent on the success roll!

[DieMunchkin]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCoffee

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger..." (LOTR) unless there are 10,000 Orks sieging the city. :) In my campaign, more experienced mages are like demigods. During the empire age of man, they held the line of Orkish advance.

Clever use of spells and uber spell combos just don't go far enough in this case. Mages lack the raw horsepower I'm looking for in GURPS. (This is not an attack on GURPS, just an observation.) GURPS is more concerned about balance.. Hmm.. Perhaps I should simply change my backdrop a little. Perhaps it was several mages who worked together to cast larger spells. I.e. As an example, Great Healing costs 20 points to cast. Obviously it would take some powerstones or mages working together to make that happen. Perhaps several mages need to work together to cast a mega fireball..

Again, thanks for your help.

What you need is some outside source of fatigue that the mages can tap into to cast their spells, like Ley Lines, Power Nodes, or human sacrifices. Look at the technology magic spells for ideas.

Such an outside source doesn't have to cost points. Powerstones can be purchased or found and don't cost points. Perhaps the player must attune himself to the source and anyone attuned to the source can draw from it.

I once had a campaign that used a similar idea - mages would have their homes and schools around Power Nodes and they all jealously guarded their power sources. Of course the bad mages were using human sacrifices to increase their Node, this threatening the balance - and providing the main source of adventure for the campaign.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'm getting good results with that rule in my campaign, too. The PC of a player who earns 100 points that she spends only on sure successes and critical successes ends up coming across as just as powerful in play as a PC who went for 100 points in permanent improvements.

Gah. Burning xp is a pet peeve of mine. I think I'll spawn a new thread rather than derailing this one, however.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Gah. Burning xp is a pet peeve of mine. I think I'll spawn a new thread rather than derailing this one, however.

Sure. Just remember that it probably belongs in Roleplaying in General, as the concept vastly transcends GURPS . . . which simply adapted an idea seen in dozens of games going back to the early 1980s.

If you're determined to keep it in GURPS, please remember that earned character points in GURPS aren't in any sense "experience points" (xp) awarded to the character for feats and deeds, but are "bonus points" given by the GM to the player as a reward for attendance and good roleplaying, and in theory redeemable for anything the GM chooses to offer. This includes temporary and permanent benefits for the PC -- which should logically be both both in-game and meta-game, since the points themselves are awarded for meta-game concerns.

My own feeling is that earned points represent the PC's "karma bank," earned by being true to principles and self (i.e., being roleplayed consistently by the player). While awarded on the meta-game level, bonus points might actually have a measurable in-game presence visible to fortune-tellers and oracles. As a result, I have no problems with them working as an expendable resource, like FP or HP, that can be burned to produce greater-than-usual results. In fact, I find this interpretation exceptionally pleasing.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by DieMunchkin

What you need is some outside source of fatigue that the mages can tap into to cast their spells, like Ley Lines, Power Nodes, or human sacrifices. Look at the technology magic spells for ideas.

Such an outside source doesn't have to cost points. Powerstones can be purchased or found and don't cost points. Perhaps the player must attune himself to the source and anyone attuned to the source can draw from it.

I once had a campaign that used a similar idea - mages would have their homes and schools around Power Nodes and they all jealously guarded their power sources. Of course the bad mages were using human sacrifices to increase their Node, this threatening the balance - and providing the main source of adventure for the campaign.

And lets not forget Draw Power as well.