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Old 04-09-2021, 06:22 AM   #1
MakDemonik
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Default Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

Hello,

I was asked a seemingly simple question by a player - namely - "Are cones affected by 1/2D range"

This has proven way harder to answer than it ever should be.

I have looked now through Basic Set, Powers, Psionic Powers, Fantasy and DF:Dragons

The results are confusing.
Basic set mentions in the description for Area effects that "Damage does not
usually decline with distance."
but this is a very soft statement. It is unclear whether it is a ruling that "no 1/2D damage applies" or just "you should buy increased 1/2D range x10 for most attacks to model this"

Fantasy has an example for Brontes which does have a 1/2D attack which is a cone. While Psionic Powers has examples like Flash which are Area attacks, but don't mention 1/2D range in their descriptions, example OR stat blocks.
DF:Dragons on the other hand mentions Cone attacks but in such generic terms - it beautifully dances around the subject of any stats - not giving any answer. It just says "Handle it as in basic set" which comes with the problem described above.

I have scoured the Forums for answers. And read through like 10 threads (Took a While). This also didn't help. Some threads just assumed "Nothing directly says 1/2D does not apply so there is no question 1/2D always works and even stacks with dissipation." Other threads mentioned "Area effects don't have 1/2D ranges" [citation needed].

Even the GURPS Wiki is confused about this and CTRL+F'ing the GURPS FAQ didn't give any answers either.

In the end... I looked into Dungeon Fantasy powered by Gurps: Exploits for help. Since this is basically a "Rewrite" of the basic set rules for Dungeon fantasy setting. An here the wording is a bit more clear. It says "[...],damage doesn’t drop off
with distance."
Which still isn't as precise as "Area attacks do not have a 1/2D range" but this is as definitive as it gets I suppose. I am aware that DFRPG vs GURPS are close but not identical and technically it could be just a simplification only for the DFRPG line like slams are etc. - I think I can accept it.

It is frustrating that such a seemingly basic issue is so poorly described. (And that is not just my take, seeing as how other people on the forums and wikis are unsure as well)

I hope that even if this thread doesn't get many replies, or even any clear answer - it might help some lost souls with the "case study" above.
It's not as good as a definitive Kromm Quote, but it's some answer at least :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakDemonik View Post
So to reiterate:
  1. Area attacks don't use 1/2D range unless its an explosion or dissipation modifier.
  2. Cone attacks DO have 1/2D ranges (and it stacks with Dissipation) but many statblocks assume a build it +15% Increased 1/2D Range when not mentioned otherwise despite the Basic Set defaulting to 10/100 ranges if nothing is specified.

    I guess use what fits better when deciding on statblocks that are not in the DFRPG line where it is specifically spelled out that -- Lack of 1/2D = FullD at Max

Last edited by MakDemonik; 04-09-2021 at 10:51 AM. Reason: Added summary
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Old 04-09-2021, 08:09 AM   #2
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

My assumption has always been that Cones do have a 1/2D. Though I can't find a specific rule that states this, there are published examples of Cone attacks with the "Increased 1/2D" enhancement.

With respect to Area attacks, if they have a 1/2D range, that would mean that if you throw your attack beyond the 1/2D range (but within max range), everything in the area of effect would take 1/2 damage. I have always assumed, however, that Area attacks do not have a 1/2D range, though I can't find any textual support for this assumption.
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Old 04-09-2021, 08:41 AM   #3
Celjabba
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

Krommquote :

Quote:
Originally Posted by http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=1565297&postcount=75
Note that cones based on Innate Attack still have Acc 3 and Range 10/100.
The note "damage does not usually decline with distance" appears under Area-Effect Attacks but not Cone Attacks.
A basic +60% (one-yard) cone affects a hex-wide strip 100 yards long, and past 10 yards, it does half damage.
A huge +150% (10-yard) cone affects a triangle 100 yards long and 10 yards wide, and past 10 yards – where it's still just a yard wide – it still does half damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=108263&page=13
Originally Posted by Kromm
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Does 1/2D stack with Dissipation?
It rather has to, or Dissipation becomes an enhancement for some cones!
DFRPG Exploits add this :
"Not all ranged attacks list 1/2D. An attack without 1/2D has full normal effect out to Maximum Range (Max)."

So ... it depends.

If it is an innate attack, 1/2D apply (and stack with dissipation if dissipation is present)
If it is in a creature stat block, follow the stat block.
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Old 04-09-2021, 08:53 AM   #4
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

The "decline with distance" that the RAW is talking about here is a rapid decline within the area itself, like -1 damage per hex or -1D per hex -- as seen in some other games. And (as it says), for most cones or other areas damage does not usually decline with distance from the origin point of the cone. Area attacks by default have the same damage throughout their area. If you want that kind of rapid decline, you'd need to modify the default behavior of the cone (as with the Explosion Enhancement on B104).

That doesn't change the overall states of the Innate Attack on which the Cone is built, though. Since those have a 1/2D, then if you throw the attack beyond 1/2D range, the damage will be lower -- and still the same throughout the cone. Just as with a short range attack at higher damage, there's no calculation for distance from the cone origin point inside the cone; damage is still equal throughout the affected area.

Distance of the cone origin point from the attacker is a different question -- and that's the distance that the 1/2D range is about, not the distance from the origin of a cone or center of an area. (You might have a machine gun doing indirect fire to create a beaten zone of some area at a long distance. Those bullets have less energy because they've travelled a long way from the gun. How far they are from the near edge or center of the beaten zone isn't relevant. That's not the point from which the attack originates.)

The quibble will be what happens when you aim a cone at a point that's just short of the 1/2D range. Should the hexes in the cone beyond 1/2D get reduced? Feel free, if that's important to you. 1/2D is an approximation anyway, as well as a coarse granularity on real-world gradual loss of energy of projectiles. So it's just as justifiable from the point of simplicity just to take the distance to the origin point to determine the damage -- or the other way around, and do 1/2D everywhere if any hex falls beyond that boundary. If you have the sort of players inclined to build a mile-long one-hex-wide cone just for the sake of theoretical arguments, then feel free to consider the distance-from-attacker for each hex in the cone and use half damage for individual hexes beyond the 1/2D range.

If you want an attack where the damage really does originate from the center of an area, as with an exploding shell, then that's exactly the case where you would buy up or remove the 1/2D limit. The concept of the attack tells you that the distance from the attacker isn't relevant to the damage, because that's not where the source is. For magic, you can invent similar double-talk that fits the setting concept. Maybe it's hard for mages to conjure a lot of energy at a point a long way from them, so 1/D makes sense even if the energy doesn't travel the intervening distance. Or maybe that's not how the magic works, so the Conjure Distant Fireball spell shouldn't be built with a 1/2D range.
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Old 04-09-2021, 10:23 AM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

I think 1/2D can apply to AE based on where you centre the AE but that causes a problem for cones since they're not circles and don't have centres.
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Old 04-09-2021, 10:49 AM   #6
MakDemonik
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
Krommquote :

DFRPG Exploits add this :
"Not all ranged attacks list 1/2D. An attack without 1/2D has full normal effect out to Maximum Range (Max)."

So ... it depends.

If it is an innate attack, 1/2D apply (and stack with dissipation if dissipation is present)
If it is in a creature stat block, follow the stat block.
Hmm, this is a very useful line, and clears up much confusion for many stat blocks - except maybe dragons.
DF:Dragons mentions "a standard 1-yard-wide x 10-yard long cone [...] See Area and Spreading Attacks (pp. B413-414)" Now it doesn't give any stats at all, and references the basic set. Which would give most Dragons a 1y long full-damage beam with a 9y 1/2D afterimage.

Though I admit that this is a (non)problem for non-Boxed Set DF only, as those splats do not technically have the Exploits rephrasing going for them. But I can assume it's also always full damage range if its not mentioned.

This is confusing design decision though -- the general notion of "If there is no 1/2D stat that means it is full damage at max range." Meanwhile we also have a rule stating that "If any statistics for Innate Attacks are not present default to Max 100, 1/2D 10." Both are "If not specified use this number" and both contradict themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
The "decline with distance" that the RAW is talking about here is a rapid decline within the area itself, like -1 damage per hex or -1D per hex -- as seen in some other games. And (as it says), for most cones or other areas damage does not usually decline with distance from the origin point of the cone. Area attacks by default have the same damage throughout their area. If you want that kind of rapid decline, you'd need to modify the default behavior of the cone (as with the Explosion Enhancement on B104)...
I have to admit i had to read that 3 times to fully understand. Mainly because the wording of "Origin of cone" and "Origin of cone at point of attacker". I guess I am just accustomed to "Center of cone" the line drawn from A to Target and "Origin of Cone" being the point from where the Innate Attacker stands and shoots.
BUT i got it in the end and thank you for the detailed explaination.

While None of my players is building theorethical powers - we just wanted a Breath attack thats easy to remember. So 5x5 Dissipation attack would be perfect as its just "divide damage by distance" etc. I see this wont work like this. Dissipation stackign with 1/2D range is annoying but I guess just more powers will see a modifier combo of Increased 1/2D range + dissipation to achieve that.

So to reiterate:
  1. Area attacks don't use 1/2D range unless its an explosion or dissipation modifier.
  2. Cone attacks DO have 1/2D ranges (and it stacks with Dissipation) but many statblocks assume a build it +15% Increased 1/2D Range when not mentioned otherwise despite the Basic Set defaulting to 10/100 ranges if nothing is specified.

    I guess use what fits better when deciding on statblocks that are not in the DFRPG line where it is specifically spelled out that -- Lack of 1/2D = FullD at Max

Last edited by MakDemonik; 04-09-2021 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Fixed Quotes
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Old 04-09-2021, 10:50 AM   #7
Gnome
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cambridge, MA
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
That doesn't change the overall states of the Innate Attack on which the Cone is built, though. Since those have a 1/2D, then if you throw the attack beyond 1/2D range, the damage will be lower -- and still the same throughout the cone. Just as with a short range attack at higher damage, there's no calculation for distance from the cone origin point inside the cone; damage is still equal throughout the affected area.
I can't for the life of me think why they would have published Cone attacks with the Increased 1/2D enhancement if it works the way you're describing (I'm thinking in particular of the "Air" element on DF5:14).
The "range" of a Cone seems to affect both how far you can place the point of origin and how long the cone is--it's hard to understand exactly how 1/2D interacts with these two uses of the range stat...
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Old 04-15-2021, 07:08 AM   #8
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

This thread got me looking at B112's Dissipation and noticed something...

at -50% it's enough to pay for the +50% tier of Area Effect (2 yard range)

B414's ruling is "divide damage by the distance in yards between the target and the center of the effect"

This basically means that if you're 2 yards away that's half damage and 1 yard away it's full damage...

One of the later pyramids gave a 1yard AE for +25% which turns out to only affect one hex, and the 2y lowest tier in basic set affects 7 hexes (target + 6 surrounding)

+25%-50% would actually be a net -25% but it seems like that shouldn't be allowed if you're not actually losing anything...

If "2 yards is actually 1 yard" in terms of tactical combat, then I'm thinking that only the central hex would take full damage and the surrounding hexes would take half damage since that's the technical 2-yard point?

another interesting thing: for resisted stuff w/ dissipation you add distance to the HT roll, so there's +3 to resist at 3 yards away, which is where there would be 1/3 damage, yet 1/2D normally gives +3 to resist...

Should there maybe only be +2 to resist at the 1/2 D range?
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Old 04-15-2021, 01:21 PM   #9
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Distance of the cone origin point from the attacker is a different question -- and that's the distance that the 1/2D range is about, not the distance from the origin of a cone or center of an area.
Where are you getting this being a thing? Basic defines cones as starting at the attacker. I don't see any option for them to originate anywhere else. See B413.
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Old 04-15-2021, 05:06 PM   #10
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Definitive Stance on 1/2D and Area/Cone Attacks

The OP seemed to want distant cones, just as you can have distant circles for your area of effect. Imagine something like canister / beehive rounds. Or just a thrown claymore mine (should someone be so silly or desperate). The cone would originate from the trigger point, not the launch point.

If launch point and expansion trigger point must occur together, then the distinction of course disappears. Those cones will originate from the attacker. But that's also just a special case. A more general model would be occasionally useful.
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