Duplication woes

[martin_rook]

I've got a player who's purchased Duplication (with Construct, Sequential, and Emergencies
Only) and I'm trying to figure out how this advantage works before awkward questions
come up during play. Here's what puzzles me:

Duplicates possess "your full knowledge and powers." So, doesn't this mean that
duplicates also have the Duplication advantage? Surely I don't need to point out the
problems this can cause, but is this how it's intended to be read?

Duplicates don't have "copies of your equipment" -- but what counts as equipment? Do
they arrive naked? The Duplicated Gear enhancement says "your dupes appear with copies
of Signature Gear that you are carrying or wearing" but what about stuff that's not
Signature Gear? If these dupes are supposed to be alternate versions of the character from
a few moments in the future, wouldn't they have any clothes, armor, guns, or equipment
the character had?

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by martin_rook

I've got a player who's purchased Duplication (with Construct, Sequential, and Emergencies
Only) and I'm trying to figure out how this advantage works before awkward questions
come up during play. Here's what puzzles me:

Duplicates possess "your full knowledge and powers." So, doesn't this mean that
duplicates also have the Duplication advantage? Surely I don't need to point out the
problems this can cause, but is this how it's intended to be read?

Duplicates don't have "copies of your equipment" -- but what counts as equipment? Do
they arrive naked? The Duplicated Gear enhancement says "your dupes appear with copies
of Signature Gear that you are carrying or wearing" but what about stuff that's not
Signature Gear? If these dupes are supposed to be alternate versions of the character from
a few moments in the future, wouldn't they have any clothes, armor, guns, or equipment
the character had?

Don't think of it as "the ability to split into n duplicates", think of it as "the ability for there to be n versions of myself at the same time". If you pay for 4 dupes, there can be five of you - and all of your dupes benefit the same as you do from there being five of you. You definitely do not get the ability to make an infinite number of yourself for 35 points.

I'm guessing that the equipment thing was set that way because of the potential for unbalancing Wealth. Maybe you could borrow from the newer rules for Create, in Powers, and set up a character point pool to cover the temporary creation of duplicate objects of value. Also in the same section, if the GM feels he can trust the player not to (ab)use the ability to gain wealth, or if wealth isn't important at all in the particular campaign, you can just waive the whole "creation pool" thing. In that case, I'd let the Duplicated Gear enhancement work on anything worn/held, not just Signature Gear. It should be particularly easy to justify with Construct - as soon as the Dupe lets go of it, it disappears. End of problem.

I'm not positive that wealth issues are the only reason for the equipment rule on Dupes, though. I guess you could have trouble if you let the character get half of a critical mass of plutonium or something.

In any case, I'd let you buy a Perk for your normal clothes/costume to let it Dupe with you (according to GURPS Update, the 3e Costume advantage converts to a 4e Schtick).

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by martin_rook

I've got a player who's purchased Duplication (with Construct, Sequential, and Emergencies
Only) and I'm trying to figure out how this advantage works before awkward questions
come up during play. Here's what puzzles me:

Duplicates possess "your full knowledge and powers." So, doesn't this mean that
duplicates also have the Duplication advantage? Surely I don't need to point out the
problems this can cause, but is this how it's intended to be read?

Duplicates don't have "copies of your equipment" -- but what counts as equipment? Do
they arrive naked? The Duplicated Gear enhancement says "your dupes appear with copies
of Signature Gear that you are carrying or wearing" but what about stuff that's not
Signature Gear? If these dupes are supposed to be alternate versions of the character from
a few moments in the future, wouldn't they have any clothes, armor, guns, or equipment
the character had?

Yes, the duplicates do have duplication. But your levels of duplication are as much as you all put together can produce. The clothing issue is trickier. A simple way out is to require a duplicator who wants clothed duplicates but not to spend for the Signature Gear enhancement (because he has no guns or anything) to get a perk to the effect that his counterparts arrive with their modesty concealed.

[PK]

1. As has been said, having Duplication X means that there can be X+1 of you in existence at once. Your dupes do have the Duplication advantage, by necessity, because that's part of the reason there can be X+1 of you -- it isn't justification for them to get to make additional dupes.

(Nonsequitor: Note that someone once suggested using the Ally Groups rules for handling chars who can have hundreds of dupes. I endorse this house rule heartily in four-color supers games and other such genres.)

2. Look at the Can Carry Equipment enhancement from Powers (you can also find it on various advantages in Characters). It is logical to allow that enhancement on Duplication, allowing a certain degree of "equipment" to dupe with you. If you want to limit it to just clothing, that's Can Carry No Encumbrance (+10%) limited by Only To Copy Clothing (-50%), or +5%. Call it a new enhancement to avoid munchkinism:

Clothed: Your dupes appear wearing your clothing, as long as it weighs no more than your Basic Lift. +5%

[HeroPenguin]

Ignore Rev Pee Kitty's second clause. In ordinary circumstances I would NEVER say this, but GURPS is pretty clear that something that is mostly useless, but cosmetic anyway is important to your character, it's either a 0-point special effect, or a +/-1 point perk/quirk. Everything else is accurate.

Strictly speaking, a Dupe with no "carries equipment" enhancement arrives naked, and has no equipment. If you're defining the advantage as summoning dupes of yourself from the future, then you *SHOULD* give them the "carries equipment" enhancement.

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

(Nonsequitor: Note that someone once suggested using the Ally Groups rules for handling chars who can have hundreds of dupes. I endorse this house rule heartily in four-color supers games and other such genres.)

That'd be me (or at least, I think I was the first). Glad you liked it. :)

Originally Posted by Rev_Pee_Kitty

2. Look at the Can Carry Equipment enhancement from Powers (you can also find it on various advantages in Characters). It is logical to allow that enhancement on Duplication, allowing a certain degree of "equipment" to dupe with you. If you want to limit it to just clothing, that's Can Carry No Encumbrance (+10%) limited by Only To Copy Clothing (-50%), or +5%. Call it a new enhancement to avoid munchkinism:

Clothed: Your dupes appear wearing your clothing, as long as it weighs no more than your Basic Lift. +5%

Well, but the Duplicated Gear enhancement is +100% for just a piece of Signature Gear. Is there anyone around who was in on the playtest, and can tell us why it was decided to make this so much more expensive (and limited) than the usual Can Carry Equipment scale?

If it is a Wealth issue, as I suspect, then go ahead and use CCE if you know that the wealth thing isn't going to be an issue in the campaign.

[martin_rook]

Originally Posted by HeroPenguin

Ignore Rev Pee Kitty's second clause. In ordinary circumstances I would NEVER say this, but GURPS is pretty clear that something that is mostly useless, but cosmetic anyway is important to your character, it's either a 0-point special effect, or a +/-1 point perk/quirk. Everything else is accurate.

Strictly speaking, a Dupe with no "carries equipment" enhancement arrives naked, and has no equipment. If you're defining the advantage as summoning dupes of yourself from the future, then you *SHOULD* give them the "carries equipment" enhancement.

The thing is, the "fugue" ability in GURPS Infinite Worlds supposedly summons copies from a split second into the future (that's why there's the "sequential" modifier) -- the description would suggest that the power produces dupes with your equipment. However, it does not have any sort of "carries equipment" enhancement.

[HeroPenguin]

Originally Posted by martin_rook

The thing is, the "fugue" ability in GURPS Infinite Worlds supposedly summons copies from a split second into the future (that's why there's the "sequential" modifier) -- the description would suggest that the power produces dupes with your equipment. However, it does not have any sort of "carries equipment" enhancement.

*shrug* Then it was an oversight. There's no reason for the advantage to assume equipment, regardless of the in-game explanation for it. Even time-rift summoned dupes may arrive naked if you use the Terminator as a model for the ability. The Can Carry Equipment mod is absolutely necessary if you want your dupes to have anything meaningful. I maintain that "dupes keep costumes" is worth a perk and no more unless the costume includes armor, money, or items.

[Ragabash Moon]

Originally Posted by HeroPenguin

*shrug* Then it was an oversight. There's no reason for the advantage to assume equipment, regardless of the in-game explanation for it. Even time-rift summoned dupes may arrive naked if you use the Terminator as a model for the ability. The Can Carry Equipment mod is absolutely necessary if you want your dupes to have anything meaningful. I maintain that "dupes keep costumes" is worth a perk and no more unless the costume includes armor, money, or items.

Not exactly. IMO Fugue includes it. It talks about how their ammo expenditure doesnt' affect your ammo expenditure. I think its not an oversight, so much as they didn't feel they needed to give the Fugue Enhancment the Can Carry Equipment Enhancment. All their equipment GOES AWAY WITH THEM... so you can't truly benefit from it. The description speaks about them having equipment, therefore they do, at least the way I see it because otherwise, the fugue enhancment would be damn near worthless.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Ragabash Moon

Not exactly. IMO Fugue includes it. It talks about how their ammo expenditure doesnt' affect your ammo expenditure. I think its not an oversight, so much as they didn't feel they needed to give the Fugue Enhancment the Can Carry Equipment Enhancment. All their equipment GOES AWAY WITH THEM... so you can't truly benefit from it. The description speaks about them having equipment, therefore they do, at least the way I see it because otherwise, the fugue enhancment would be damn near worthless.

IDHMBWM, but isn't Fugue a Meta-trait rather than an enhancement? Built with Duplication and a handful of modifiers (Construct, Sequential, some others)? Note that equipment duplicated (with the Duplicated Gear enhancement) vanishes when the dupes merge back. That does make it seem like the DupGear enhancer should be included in Fugue to get the stated effect.