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Old 05-05-2021, 08:34 PM   #11
Keampe
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Personally, I like that RAW has substantial differentiation between melee weapons skills.

If anything, I think some of the defaults between disparate weapons are to0 generous.

I don't think in life or death situations against similarly skilled opponents that using a sword or an axe are similar enough to warrant being easily switched.

I don't think a guy who trains 16 CP worth with a Rapier should expect to be better with a broadsword than a guy who trains 2 CP with a Broadsword.

And I don't really think it's a problem if someone who chooses to be a generalist is not as good as a specialist in the specialist's bailiwick. That's a choice.
Actually from experience: I fought with sword and board for a number of years. One event I decided to pick up a single handed axe (I had an idea) and found that it was pretty easy to use. Not much difference at all, once you got used to it and that didn't take long. I found in single combat I missed the ability to thrust, but striking was mostly the same. Not a problem, really.

Oh, and the idea worked. In the shield wall I used the axe to hook the opposing shield and bring it down. The guy with the spear behind me then bonked him in the face. Based off of a historical account of Viking fighting. :)

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Old 05-05-2021, 10:57 PM   #12
(E)
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

That last post reminded me of an idea that I've had knocking around for a while.
Rather than dividing up combat effectiveness by weapon type, instead divide it up by fighting style.
A knight would therefore be skilled at fighting in a manner appropriate to their training and penalized when fighting in another style, say penalized when less equipped in armour, or having difficulty when reduced to a single one handed weapon.
These are not the best examples, but I am sure I have a couple of players who would adapt to the idea.
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Old 05-05-2021, 11:12 PM   #13
Polydamas
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

Something like the OP would be fine. Familiarity penalties can handle the rapier fencer who picks up a no-dachi or the punk with a switchblade who grabs a gladius.

I don't have time to dig up the last few threads where I talked about this, but I think there is room to distinguish between blade and staff weapon skills which focus on strette guardie (point-in-line) with the weapon extended, and others. The first kind would have defensive bonuses like GURPS 4e Fencing and Staff skill but penalties to cutting damage and expose the weapon to beats and grabs and the weapon hand to strikes unless it has a Complex Hilt for extra G$.

Which to use could be a mandatory specialization and you could buy a perk to know both.
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Old 05-06-2021, 07:16 AM   #14
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Originally Posted by (E) View Post
That last post reminded me of an idea that I've had knocking around for a while.
Rather than dividing up combat effectiveness by weapon type, instead divide it up by fighting style.
A knight would therefore be skilled at fighting in a manner appropriate to their training and penalized when fighting in another style, say penalized when less equipped in armour, or having difficulty when reduced to a single one handed weapon.
These are not the best examples, but I am sure I have a couple of players who would adapt to the idea.
While not to that extent, I had a similar idea (but rejected it as likely being too complex) when writing this up. Instead of the above broad skills, just list skill building blocks (comparable to the Optional Specializations) and use the Dabbler Method to combine them, essentially creating "Style" skills - Norse Combat might be 1H Sword + 1H Axe + 1H Spear + 2H Polearm + 2H Spear + Buckler + Strapped + Punch + Grapple + Knife. That's 5 DX/A and 5 DX/E, which works out to be equivalent to 7.5 DX/A; round up to 8, and that's a skill that can be purchased as DX/VVH. To go with the idea of armor familiarity coming into play, not being as skilled without a shield, etc, you might allow for special drawbacks, perhaps each negating a single DX/E skill (or larger drawbacks might negate a DX/A or even DX/H).

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Something like the OP would be fine. Familiarity penalties can handle the rapier fencer who picks up a no-dachi or the punk with a switchblade who grabs a gladius.
Something I forgot (and frankly didn't have the space) to mention in the original post is that the defaults assume a decent amount of cross-training (hence why if your default gets you to a comparable level to actual training, you are treated as trained in that skill), even if only for the purpose of knowing what a given weapon type is capable of so you can more readily fight against someone using it. There could be space for someone who has trained exclusively with a specific weapon type to have much harsher defaults to use others, as well as basically be subject to "First Encounter With a New Way To Die" (LT60) against basically all other weapons. Doing so would probably make the skill one level easier - someone who has trained with rapiers, and only rapiers, would be using a DX/E skill, but would be at a serious disadvantage against someone using a mace (and the GM might even have the penalty come into play even against other users of 1H Sword, provided they were using a non-Fencing variant).

Of course, the switchblade-punk who grabs a gladius isn't in very good shape - he's gone from either Brawling or Knife to Sword, which is a pretty hefty penalty (-6 or -7, respectively). Unless you interpret the gladius as a GURPS Long Knife, in which case he can use his Brawling/Knife skill to use it at Reach C (but is heavily penalized at Reach 1).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
I don't have time to dig up the last few threads where I talked about this, but I think there is room to distinguish between blade and staff weapon skills which focus on strette guardie (point-in-line) with the weapon extended, and others. The first kind would have defensive bonuses like GURPS 4e Fencing and Staff skill but penalties to cutting damage and expose the weapon to beats and grabs and the weapon hand to strikes unless it has a Complex Hilt for extra G$.

Which to use could be a mandatory specialization and you could buy a perk to know both.
My system currently does something like this, requiring players to define if their skill is Fencing or non-Fencing, but that was more about footwork and the like than stance. I could actually see this being combined with that, honestly. Fluid vs Stable (which I like better than Fencing vs non-Fencing) would be Parry nF vs Parry n - Fluid gets improved Retreats but suffers penalties for encumbrance. Dueling vs Warfare would be strette guardie vs normal, and would give something like +1 to Parry but be penalized in Beats*, perhaps have MoS 0 on Parry risk a reduced-damage strike to the hand (with the hilt granting some protection), and disallow Parries to the Side (possibly including Runaround Attacks, although those might just suffer a higher penalty) as well as swing attacks (you can still use the sw mode, but it's based on thr, like a tip slash). I'd say you only need to write what variant it is for Fluid and Dueling - Stable and Warfare is the default. This is just a rough concept, however, and I'm not certain if I'd want to take this approach - it might be better to just have Dueling be a stance that anyone can switch to or from at the start of their turn

*It would also be more difficult to Parry strikes from heavier weapons as well, perhaps using 70% of the character's BL. That's typically an edge case (RAW, this would just mean that a normal character could Parry up to a 14 lb weapon instead of a 20 lb one), although I could see houserules that was more nuanced where this could come into play earlier (such as something like -1 to Parry for every 3 points by which the attacking weapon's MinST exceed's the defender's ST).
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Old 05-06-2021, 07:59 AM   #15
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

While interesting, I really don't like having to look up or memorize a bunch of defaults on top of everything else. I'd much rather have a few skills that have (standard) defaults to each other then use techniques inside groups. It would look something like:

Striking (DX/A). Striking at your character's reach. -2 penalty for +1 reach (kick, wild swing). May alternatively use a weapon at -4* with the same reach.

Grappling (DX/A). As above, but using a weapon.

Melee Weapon (DX/A). Must specialize by weapon category (Axe/Mace, Sword, Flail, etc). Additional weapon types are a -4*.

Ranged Weapon (DX/A). Must specialize by weapon category (Pistol, Shotgun, Rifle, etc). Additional weapon types are at -4*.

* Technique (Tech/A): Weapon cross training. You can buy off the penalty for using an alternate category as a technique (each point in this technique reduces the penalty by 1). Cannot exceed base skill.

Compared to the regular system, you have the similar diversity but it's cheaper to cross train and much simpler to remember.

The hypothetical Knight that trains up Melee (Sword) at DX+6 would get to default any other weapon at -4. Compared to the current system that's not unreasonable as he already could defaults quite a few things (club, knife, fencing weapon) or just take a few weapon adaptation perks (axe/mace -> sword) for emergencies. He could also buy off the penalties for using an Axe by -1 for 1 point until it's even to his sword level (which would be a replacement for Weapon Adaptation that's only 1 point).
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Old 05-06-2021, 08:51 AM   #16
Tyneras
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

I don't mind having dozens or hundreds of skills as long as the divisions make sense and the skill isn't trying to be a style. A bunch of current melee weapon skills have features that would be better off as style perks or direct attributes of the weapon.

"Melee Weapon" and "Ranged Weapon" get a flat no from me. Both those categories have clear internal divisions and if I wanted simplification at that level, I would play something other than GURPS.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:05 AM   #17
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
"Melee Weapon" and "Ranged Weapon" get a flat no from me. Both those categories have clear internal divisions and if I wanted simplification at that level, I would play something other than GURPS.
Gun (Pistol) isn't a whole lot different than Melee (Sword). I used "Ranged" just to bundle more like skills as specializations.

Each ranged or melee category could be written out like: Axe/Mace (DX/A), Sword (DX/A), Flail (DX/A), Whip (DX/A), Knife (DX/A), etc where you can use a technique (instead of Weapon Adaption) to buy off a -4 cross training penalty. It's exactly the same system with just a different naming system. The level of granularity doesn't change by turning individual skills into specializations.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:19 AM   #18
Tyneras
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Gun (Pistol) isn't a whole lot different than Melee (Sword). I used "Ranged" just to bundle more like skills as specializations.

Each ranged or melee category could be written out like: Axe/Mace (DX/A), Sword (DX/A), Flail (DX/A), Whip (DX/A), Knife (DX/A), etc where you can use a technique (instead of Weapon Adaption) to buy off a -4 cross training penalty. It's exactly the same system with just a different naming system. The level of granularity doesn't change by turning individual skills into specializations.
Glad my skill with a garrote lets me swing a 2 handed sword skillfully, and all that practice with a longbow let me improve my pistol, sling and flamethrower skills.

I find this level of skill combination frankly ridiculous. Just take a BANG! skill, it's what they are for.
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Old 05-06-2021, 09:36 AM   #19
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

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Originally Posted by Tyneras View Post
Glad my skill with a garrote lets me swing a 2 handed sword skillfully, and all that practice with a longbow let me improve my pistol, sling and flamethrower skills.
I'd throw garrote under range C grappling (different skill). As for practice, that's the same problem that boosting DX or putting them in a talent does - just at a potentially different price point.

Conversely, if you spend lots of time learning to lead targets and prepare shots wouldn't you see some benefit to using a pistol, sling or flamethrower? It seem equally ridiculous that to have a longbow master defaults just as badly someone that's never fired anything.

IME a -4 seems pretty severe, but it could different (-5 or so) instead and also limited to buying off the penalty (perhaps secondary skills can only get to -1). Really we're just discussing how much to charge, not the effect.

Quote:
I find this level of skill combination frankly ridiculous. Just take a BANG! skill, it's what they are for.
That's just inaccurate. Bang skills give you hyper-compentency at same skill level.

It sounds like you're hung up on the naming in a different fashion. We're discussing how much is fair to charge. The actual character sheet notation can be worked out in quite a few different ways.

What I proposed above would hardly change the point value of current characters unless they have both a high skill level in one skill and also raise other weapons that would be entirely different skills without current defaults.
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Old 05-06-2021, 10:21 AM   #20
Tyneras
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA
Default Re: GURPS Overhaul: Combat Skills, Take 3

Currently there are 27 melee weapon skills (unless I missed some) so any sort of reduction/recombination will see significant gains in point efficiency.

Currently kicking myself because I can't find my "melee weapon skill relationship" sheet I worked out. I had everything grouped by "default proximity" and it worked out to 6 large blobs that became my suggested condensed skills.

Though, on consideration, 1 Handed Balanced and 1 Handed Unbalanced may be close enough to just merge into 1 Handed Weapons. My hammer and manchette feel different but I'm not sure its enough of a difference be justify separate skills. I stand firm on the others, however.

Now, if I am just being stubborn and getting hung up on naming conventions, then using your convention I think my proposal would be translated as:
Melee Weapon (1 Handed)
Melee Weapon (2 Handed Balanced)
Melee Weapon (2 Handed Unbalanced)
Melee Weapon (Reach Weapons)

I do think Whip, Garotte, Net and Shield don't have enough overlap to be grouped under a master skill like the above. Garrote is such an oddball I'm never quite satisfied no matter where I put it.
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