[Build Advice] Enhancement: Benefits from (Power Talent) value?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Your opinions on how I would go about pricing an enhancement that lets an advantage benefit from a power talent but not suffer the limitation of that source? So, Generic Advantage with (Benefits from (Power Talent), +...%) results in the enhancement value of ...?

I'm thinking +10% is reasonable. Whatcha think?

[Refplace]

I would probably call it a feature but it depends on the talent and advantage.
Can you elaborate?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I would probably call it a feature but it depends on the talent and advantage.
Can you elaborate?

In this specific case:
Power Talent - Psionic ESP
Advantages - Chameleon, Sensitive, Scanning Sense (Sonar), Silence, Telecommunication (Directional Sound), Telecommunication (Sonar Comm)

The advantages are species-wide traits. The power talent isn't, but is enabled via the Racial Gifts perk (which is species-wide). A Mnemi Esper is better at concealing themselves with camouflage, at interpreting what its' sonar perceives, at concealing any sounds it may make and at establishing contact with its' sound comms than a non-Esper is; it can also pull all the stunts with these advantages that it can with its' psionic powers. However, shutting off an Esper's ESP doesn't make those advantages stop working ... they just stop being enhanced beyond what they would otherwise be.

I also intend to generalize the enhancement for future use, so ...

[Refplace]

Pretty diverse list and several of them have rolls that would be related. Mostly Per, I assume you want this to add to the PER rolls and the stealth rolls using the powers?
If so I think +10% is fair. In this case your defiantely getting a benefit after all.

[munin]

Limitations of a power source usually have definite costs (Evaluating Power Modifiers, pp. P20-26). If one ability is part of a power but is not subject to the usual limitations of the power, you should just buy off those limitations. You might write this up as "ESP, -10%; Not limited by anti-psi powers and technology, +10%" or you might condense it into a convenience notation such as "ESP, No interference, +0%". So some regular abilities might have the -10% version of the power modifier and others might have the +0% version of the power modifier, but they're all still part of the same power (and thus affected by the power talent). Obviously, if you're using a power modifier with a different value (Cosmic, Moral, Nature, Spirit, etc.), the cost to buy off the power limitations will be different.

Ignoring power limitations, whether or not an ability is affected by a power talent is mostly a feature. The number of abilities that are affected by the power talent might change the cost of the talent (Pricing Talents, p. P29), but it doesn't affect the ability itself.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Your opinions on how I would go about pricing an enhancement that lets an advantage benefit from a power talent but not suffer the limitation of that source? So, Generic Advantage with (Benefits from (Power Talent), +...%) results in the enhancement value of ...?

I'm thinking +10% is reasonable. Whatcha think?

Too much of a headscratcher, IMO. Kinda like taking a PowMod for an ability but not having the inherent limitations. Why not just make up a new Talent for the advantages?

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by munin

Limitations of a power source usually have definite costs (Evaluating Power Modifiers, pp. P20-26). If one ability is part of a power but is not subject to the usual limitations of the power, you should just buy off those limitations. You might write this up as "ESP, -10%; Not limited by anti-psi powers and technology, +10%" or you might condense it into a convenience notation such as "ESP, No interference, +0%". So some regular abilities might have the -10% version of the power modifier and others might have the +0% version of the power modifier, but they're all still part of the same power (and thus affected by the power talent). Obviously, if you're using a power modifier with a different value (Cosmic, Moral, Nature, Spirit, etc.), the cost to buy off the power limitations will be different.

Ignoring power limitations, whether or not an ability is affected by a power talent is mostly a feature. The number of abilities that are affected by the power talent might change the cost of the talent (Pricing Talents, p. P29), but it doesn't affect the ability itself.

I agree here. Simple and most effective, without any weird side issues.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Too much of a headscratcher, IMO.

Heh.

Kinda like taking a PowMod for an ability but not having the inherent limitations.

Precisely.

Why not just make up a new Talent for the advantages?

Mnemi ESPer (Psionic ESP 4 [20], Mnemi Psionic ESP 4 [20]) [40]
vs: Human ESPer (Psionic ESP 4 [20]) [20]

... with the Mnemi Psionic ESP power talent affecting a grand total of six powers (only and ever) that don't require the power talent to use in the first place (as every Mnemi in existence has and uses those powers absent individual disadvantages to the contrary) but the Mnemi ESPer can't not purchase the Mnemi Psionic ESP power talent if they are going to purchase the Psionic ESP power talent at all; and they must purchase both power talents at the same level.

That strikes me as unfair.

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I agree here. Simple and most effective, without any weird side issues.

I'm tending to agree. Still thinking on it though.

[kirbwarrior]

If it gives them an edge that people are unaware of e.g. "I'a zap you with anti-powerz" "Oho! Antipowers no work on me!" then an Unusual Background is called for, but since this is species wide, I don't believe that would be the case.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Mnemi ESPer (Psionic ESP 4 [20], Mnemi Psionic ESP 4 [20]) [40]
vs: Human ESPer (Psionic ESP 4 [20]) [20]

... with the Mnemi Psionic ESP power talent affecting a grand total of six powers (only and ever) that don't require the power talent to use in the first place (as every Mnemi in existence has and uses those powers absent individual disadvantages to the contrary) but the Mnemi ESPer can't not purchase the Mnemi Psionic ESP power talent if they are going to purchase the Psionic ESP power talent at all; and they must purchase both power talents at the same level.

That strikes me as unfair.

The only thing I see that might be unfair is forcing the race to buy equal Talent levels for both sets of abilities. That is a campaign level decision, so it can't be considered a problem with giving them another Talent. Human ESPers presumably don't qualify to purchase the proposed Talent at all. Anyway, I'm just saying how I might handle such a build, by avoiding conceptual problems involved in the idea of getting the benefit of a Power Talent without actually belonging to the power.