[Low-Tech] Material Cost in higher TL settings

Blind Mapmaker · 01-24-2011, 04:35 AM

I've been looking at the Crafting Rules in Low-Tech Companion 3 to give me some ideas for a post-apocalyptic campaign with varying degrees of industrialisation (Rifts if anyone is interested).

Now, I'd like to expand the table to include other materials (easy enough) and get an idea how much things should cost at a higher TL, but I'm finding myself a bit stumped. The rules for raw materials work out alright for TL 4 if you are using labour costs, but I don't have much of an idea what the TL progression should look like, especially when things like power tools come into the picture. Obviously 64 lbs. of raw wood for a day's labour would be considered abysmal for a lumberjack from TL 6 onwards.

Have any of you worked out something like this or do you have any pointers for me? I realize that many material costs will be negligible at higher techlevels, but the setting offers lots of exotic variants of normal materials where some comparison would be handy. And I just like fiddling with stuff like this ^^

By the way, I'm a pretty new forum member (long-time lurker). If this is too unreasonable a request, don't hesitate to tell me.

DanHoward · 01-24-2011, 05:16 AM

Doesn't work for a post apocalyptic setting. Most of the materials are recycled and scavenged from existing structures.

Blind Mapmaker · 01-24-2011, 05:28 AM

That isn't really the case in Rifts. The apocalypse is basically 200 years past and you can't scavenge much any more. What I'm looking for is basically some sort of TL progression past TL 4 with or without an industrial infrastructure. Though, I think infrastructure is more important for things like manufacturing and transportation, less so for raw material gathering (with mining being the obvious exception).

Blind Mapmaker · 01-25-2011, 04:18 AM

Okay, just in case someone is still interested. I did some number-crunching based on lumber prices I could find online and lumber production/workers in the lumber industry in Canada. So this is obviously TL 8 for starters.

The thickness of the planks/posts doesn't seem to matter much. Prices vary in both directions and not by much. Probably buyers can get a discount for sizes the sawmill is using as defaults, but those will be less than 5% and I'm not going to go into that much detail. The big difference seem to be whether wood is sold rough (for building) or with a smooth surface (for interior building parts and furniture). I couldn't find any reliable prices for Raw Wood (as per LTC3).

I assumed a monthly income based on the Forester on LTC3 p. 46, which works out to about 2520 $ at TL 8. This might be a bit on the high side for a lumberjack, but I guess it's not too bad, seeing that it is still a good deal below average pay.

With the usual calculation that would give 231 lbs. of rough lumber per day at 0.24 $/lb. and 73 lbs. of smooth lumber at 0.76 $/lb (the prices are an average of what I found, based on fir). However, these would be still be without figuring energy costs, management, wear & tear and other overhead. So, actual production rates would be higher.

I'm not an economist and so I'm a bit at a loss here as to how much I should increase the 0.55 modifier for routine work. Roughly double seems about right, but I'm not sure.

I also found some data for Canada which seems to indicate that if you take into account the entirety of people employed in the lumber industry and the lumber production one person employed in the industry should produce about 808 lbs. of raw wood per day (figured using a GURPS 25 workdays month). Running with this figure would give a price of 0.07/lb. which seems much to low. Now, if I assume double the modifier for routine work (x1.1) this would come to a more reasonable 0.14 $/lb. or 0.58 times the cost of rough lumber. This might still be a bit on the low side, but I think it's getting close.

With the same labour cost modifier rough lumber comes to 462 lbs. a day and smooth lumber to 146 lbs. a day which does not seem totally unreasonable for someone who knows next to nothing about the business (considering that the cutting and transportation for the tree is also part of this work).

Now, what does this mean? Obviously the overhead will vary wildly from industry to industry, which is probably why nobody wanted to expand the table to higher techlevels. I would even argue that it varies at the lower techlevels, too. That's why the prices for ores are comparatively low (low wages, but more unconsidered overhead).

If anybody does have an idea how to figure out overhead costs for different materials at current conditions I would love to hear about that. Thought on how to scale things by techlevel would be even better.

01-24-2011, 04:35 AM	#1
Blind Mapmaker Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mannheim, Baden	[Low-Tech] Material Cost in higher TL settings I've been looking at the Crafting Rules in Low-Tech Companion 3 to give me some ideas for a post-apocalyptic campaign with varying degrees of industrialisation (Rifts if anyone is interested). Now, I'd like to expand the table to include other materials (easy enough) and get an idea how much things should cost at a higher TL, but I'm finding myself a bit stumped. The rules for raw materials work out alright for TL 4 if you are using labour costs, but I don't have much of an idea what the TL progression should look like, especially when things like power tools come into the picture. Obviously 64 lbs. of raw wood for a day's labour would be considered abysmal for a lumberjack from TL 6 onwards. Have any of you worked out something like this or do you have any pointers for me? I realize that many material costs will be negligible at higher techlevels, but the setting offers lots of exotic variants of normal materials where some comparison would be handy. And I just like fiddling with stuff like this ^^ By the way, I'm a pretty new forum member (long-time lurker). If this is too unreasonable a request, don't hesitate to tell me.

01-24-2011, 05:16 AM	#2
DanHoward Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia	Re: [Low-Tech] Material Cost in higher TL settings Doesn't work for a post apocalyptic setting. Most of the materials are recycled and scavenged from existing structures.

01-24-2011, 05:28 AM	#3
Blind Mapmaker Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mannheim, Baden	Re: [Low-Tech] Material Cost in higher TL settings That isn't really the case in Rifts. The apocalypse is basically 200 years past and you can't scavenge much any more. What I'm looking for is basically some sort of TL progression past TL 4 with or without an industrial infrastructure. Though, I think infrastructure is more important for things like manufacturing and transportation, less so for raw material gathering (with mining being the obvious exception).

01-25-2011, 04:18 AM	#4
Blind Mapmaker Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Mannheim, Baden	Re: [Low-Tech] Material Cost in higher TL settings Okay, just in case someone is still interested. I did some number-crunching based on lumber prices I could find online and lumber production/workers in the lumber industry in Canada. So this is obviously TL 8 for starters. The thickness of the planks/posts doesn't seem to matter much. Prices vary in both directions and not by much. Probably buyers can get a discount for sizes the sawmill is using as defaults, but those will be less than 5% and I'm not going to go into that much detail. The big difference seem to be whether wood is sold rough (for building) or with a smooth surface (for interior building parts and furniture). I couldn't find any reliable prices for Raw Wood (as per LTC3). I assumed a monthly income based on the Forester on LTC3 p. 46, which works out to about 2520 $ at TL 8. This might be a bit on the high side for a lumberjack, but I guess it's not too bad, seeing that it is still a good deal below average pay. With the usual calculation that would give 231 lbs. of rough lumber per day at 0.24 $/lb. and 73 lbs. of smooth lumber at 0.76 $/lb (the prices are an average of what I found, based on fir). However, these would be still be without figuring energy costs, management, wear & tear and other overhead. So, actual production rates would be higher. I'm not an economist and so I'm a bit at a loss here as to how much I should increase the 0.55 modifier for routine work. Roughly double seems about right, but I'm not sure. I also found some data for Canada which seems to indicate that if you take into account the entirety of people employed in the lumber industry and the lumber production one person employed in the industry should produce about 808 lbs. of raw wood per day (figured using a GURPS 25 workdays month). Running with this figure would give a price of 0.07/lb. which seems much to low. Now, if I assume double the modifier for routine work (x1.1) this would come to a more reasonable 0.14 $/lb. or 0.58 times the cost of rough lumber. This might still be a bit on the low side, but I think it's getting close. With the same labour cost modifier rough lumber comes to 462 lbs. a day and smooth lumber to 146 lbs. a day which does not seem totally unreasonable for someone who knows next to nothing about the business (considering that the cutting and transportation for the tree is also part of this work). Now, what does this mean? Obviously the overhead will vary wildly from industry to industry, which is probably why nobody wanted to expand the table to higher techlevels. I would even argue that it varies at the lower techlevels, too. That's why the prices for ores are comparatively low (low wages, but more unconsidered overhead). If anybody does have an idea how to figure out overhead costs for different materials at current conditions I would love to hear about that. Thought on how to scale things by techlevel would be even better.