[Low-Tech] rigid torso armor

[Michael Lewis]

Were there hardened leather breastplates historically? If there was, were they flexible enough to fight in? I'm referring to Low-Tech's optional rule of hit locations and targeting the abdomen.

Hope this makes sense.

[Purple Haze]

The Greeks and Romans made "muscle cuirasses" out of leather as well as bronze and iron. So yes they existed.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Purple Haze

The Greeks and Romans made "muscle cuirasses" out of leather as well as bronze and iron. So yes they existed.

There is no evidence to suggest that the muscle-cuirass was ever made of anything other than metal. The only evidence of Roman leather armour is in the form of scale/lamellar. The Greeks had a type of leather armour called a spolas that is probably the tube-and-yoke armour depicted in illustrations.

Regarding the original question, rigid armour stops at the mid-rib. It doesn't matter whether it is made of leather or metal. If you actually look at a muscle cuirass you'll see that it isn't anatomically correct. The navel on the armour is located a lot higher than the navel on the wearer and the bottom of the cuirass actually stops at about navel level. The abdomen was covered with leather/cloth strips called ptyruges. If you extended a breastplate down so that it covered the abdomen then it would be very restrictive.

[Sam Baughn]

Although Greeks and Romans may not have used leather cuirasses, I believe that there is some evidence that some early medieval European knights wore them over their mail. From the illustrations I've seen, they seem to have covered only the ribcage and not the abdomen.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

There is no evidence to suggest that the muscle-cuirass was ever made of anything other than metal. The only evidence of Roman leather armour is in the form of scale/lamellar. The Greeks had a type of leather armour called a spolas that is probably the tube-and-yoke armour depicted in illustrations.

Regarding the original question, rigid armour stops at the mid-rib. It doesn't matter whether it is made of leather or metal. If you actually look at a muscle cuirass you'll see that it isn't anatomically correct. The navel on the armour is located a lot higher than the navel on the wearer and the bottom of the cuirass actually stops at about navel level. The abdomen was covered with leather/cloth strips called ptyruges. If you extended a breastplate down so that it covered the abdomen then it would be very restrictive.

Isn't Part of the reason of this that Leather don't survive time as well as bronze or iron?

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos

Isn't Part of the reason of this that Leather don't survive time as well as bronze or iron?

That is a cop out by people who can't study the evidence properly. Just looking at Roman finds there are literally tons of surviving artefacts made of leather - including leather fittings for metal armour. Amongst all of this there is one single example of leather armour and it is a piece of lamellar from Dura Europos.

[Michael Lewis]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Regarding the original question, rigid armour stops at the mid-rib. It doesn't matter whether it is made of leather or metal. If you actually look at a muscle cuirass you'll see that it isn't anatomically correct. The navel on the armour is located a lot higher than the navel on the wearer and the bottom of the cuirass actually stops at about navel level. The abdomen was covered with leather/cloth strips called ptyruges. If you extended a breastplate down so that it covered the abdomen then it would be very restrictive.

Stupid question; where is the mid rib? Is it the bottom of the ribcage?

I've been googling some pictures of armor(such as breastplates) and they don't look flexible at all. They all look like one piece. Am I missing something?

Are there some good pictures of historical or replica armor that someone could link me too?

Michael

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by Michael Lewis

Stupid question; where is the mid rib? Is it the bottom of the ribcage?

I've been googling some pictures of armor(such as breastplates) and they don't look flexible at all. They all look like one piece. Am I missing something?

Are there some good pictures of historical or replica armor that someone could link me too?

Michael

While its just a guess, I would assume mid rib is about midway down the ribcage given the term.

[Michael Lewis]

Originally Posted by Jonas

While its just a guess, I would assume mid rib is about midway down the ribcage given the term.

That's what I was thinking but it seems so high to me.

[DanHoward]

Apologies, I meant "mid-riff".