Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-08-2010, 09:19 AM   #11
Pmandrekar
Careful Wisher
 
Pmandrekar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oregon, WI
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031 View Post
On a tangent, what effect does other metals have on shield? For example: Bronze, TL3/4 Steel, higher-quality TL5/6 Steel, or TL7+ Titanium Steel alloy?

This isn't counting the thick aluminum garbage can lid as an improvised buckler...
I don't know the exact numbers, but I ran across TL5/TL6 Steel and Titanium Steel alternatives (if memory serves, Titanium gives the same DR for 1/3rd the weight. The cost was substantially more). Both were listed (as I recall) in GURPS High-Tech, 4th Edition. I don't remember where, but it was one of those inset boxes. Just ran across it the other day.

It was listed as armor that modern reenactors might be able to have made by TL. But I would certainly see this as being appropriate techniques available to low-tech cultures with access to the Magic tables. :)

Good luck!

-P.
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
P. Mandrekar, Geneticist and Gamer
Rational Centrist
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts"- Daniel P. Moynihan
Pmandrekar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 09:23 AM   #12
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
are you reffering to Tin Bronze (Tin and Copper) or Arsenic bronze (Arsenic and Copper)

Arsenic Bronze on has a slight edge and some time a loss to wrought iron on the Vickers hardness, but Tin Bronze is less toxic and Definitely superior in hardness. but Tin and Copper is really found together out side of South East Asia.
Tin bronze. Tin and copper may be rarely (I think that's what you meant) found "together" NOW, but there's a LOT of tin in the british isles, and lots of historical tin mines in Europe and north Africa which have been mined out for hundreds (and sometimes literally thousands) of years. You don't need tin and copper to be in the same place, just enough societal advancement that you can get them to the same place.

There's no coincidence the start of the Bronze Age and the rise of large agricultural societies are largely congruent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
But Neither form of Bronze compares in strength pf Steel.
Didn't mention steel, deliberately, because afaik the line between "steel" and "iron" in low-tech hand-forged arms and armor is nebulous at best. "iron" is an obnoxiously imprecise word in common English.

Speaking of another obnoxiously imprecise word: what do you mean by strength?
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 10:22 AM   #13
RyanW
 
RyanW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Southeast NC
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
There's no coincidence the start of the Bronze Age and the rise of large agricultural societies are largely congruent.
Roughly speaking, it takes a rather robust organization to operate mines, caravans, shipyards, and merchant fleets. Not to mention the military it may take to secure the production and/or passage.

Alternately, you could hire out (the Phoenicians were the go-to guys for tin in the Med), but that just means a robust organization to get a surplus of something someone might accept in trade.
__________________
RyanW
- Actually one normal sized guy in three tiny trenchcoats.
RyanW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 11:03 AM   #14
Dangerious P. Cats
 
Dangerious P. Cats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Not officially. Unofficially I use BLx2 as a (generous) rule, based on the One Handed Lift value.

I also use lighter base weights for shields though, the existing ones are a bit crazy.
That does seem very generious, you're almost getting into D&D weights.

Does anyone have historical examples of metal shields and how much they weigh?
__________________
There is no "i" in team, but there is in Dangerious!
Dangerious P. Cats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 11:12 AM   #15
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: metal shields

I should probably go with BL flat up with my reduced shield weights, but 2x BL is basically necessary for normal men to use metal shields with the Basic Set weights.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 11:43 AM   #16
Dangerious P. Cats
 
Dangerious P. Cats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
I should probably go with BL flat up with my reduced shield weights, but 2x BL is basically necessary for normal men to use metal shields with the Basic Set weights.
You could always have gradients of use measured in weight intervals. At the first interval the shield is used in all the ways a shiled can be, at the second wieght interval the shield becomes unbalanceda at the third interval the shield can only be used to Block or as cover for example. I am wondering what shield rules you use.
__________________
There is no "i" in team, but there is in Dangerious!
Dangerious P. Cats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 03:41 PM   #17
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
are you reffering to Tin Bronze (Tin and Copper) or Arsenic bronze (Arsenic and Copper).
This implies that arsenic was intentionally added to copper. This has been shown not to be the case. Examination of local ore deposits in Africa and their associated smelted products indicate that the level of arsenic that is present in excavated artefacts corresponds to the natural level of arsenic in the ores that were used. In other words the smiths just smelted everything "green" that they could find and used the best results for making tools and weapons. It is a coincidence that the best alloys happened to contain arsenic. The first man-made bronze is still tin-copper.
DanHoward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 03:44 PM   #18
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats View Post
Does anyone have historical examples of metal shields and how much they weigh?
They weigh the same or even less than a similarly-sized shield that was made of wood/leather. That is the whole point of using metal for protection. It weighs less than any other available material that offers similar protection.

Here are three examples: Iranian Qajar round shields made of steel:
1) weighs 2620g and has a diameter of 51.5cm.
2) 2270g, 39.5cm
3) 1960g, 39cm

Similar shields made of rhino hide with metal bosses:
1) 1880g, 51cm
2) 4500g, 61.5cm
3) 3270g, 51cm.

The problem is that we don't know the thickness and so cannot guess the DR. Obviously any metallic shield that weighs the same as a similarly-sized hide shield will have higher DR and HP.

Last edited by DanHoward; 04-08-2010 at 04:18 PM.
DanHoward is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 04:18 PM   #19
roguebfl
Dog of Lysdexics
 
roguebfl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne FL, Formerly Wellington NZ
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
They weigh the same or even less than a similarly-sized shield that was made of wood/leather. That is the whole point of using metal for protection. It weighs less than any other available material that offers similar protection.
To elaborate on your point Similarly Size refers to protection area, if they were the same volume, they would be heavier. But metal's strength is such it can be done with less material hence lighter, rather metal it self is lighter. (though some are)
__________________
Rogue the Bronze Firelizard
Gerald Grenier, Jr. Hail Eris!
Rogue's Weyr
roguebfl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2010, 04:24 PM   #20
DanHoward
 
DanHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Default Re: metal shields

Quote:
Originally Posted by roguebfl View Post
To elaborate on your point Similarly Size refers to protection area, if they were the same volume, they would be heavier.
Which was never done. A typical wooden and hide shield would be at least 5 times thicker than an equivalent metallic shield.
DanHoward is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
low-tech, shields

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.