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Old 02-03-2009, 08:43 PM   #41
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl
The average rpg hobbyist expects low tech shields to be durable equipment. GURPS caters to this.

Realistic low tech shields, as noted, take a lot of damage in fights. Handling this in GURPS results in a lot of record keeping and maintenance.

GM: Lord Phluphernuttur, the Black Squire smacks you with his morningstar!
Player: I block (clatter) made it by 3.
GM: OK, the morningstar does (clatter) 11 points to your shield. Is that enough to bash through?
Player: hrm... minus DR ... carry the 2 ... ok 3 points get through.
GM: OK, roll on the shield penetration hit location table (clatter) it hits your helmet.
Player: Whew, I got DR 5 there.
GM: Are we using armor damage?
Other players: (run away screaming)

Apparently your group is not like mine..

Player 1:
(browsing through equipment lists)
Oh.. look, the shields have really high DR
(browse more)
Oh.. and they also require 1/4 of the HP to breach.
(calculates)
so that is for the large shield will require 24 points.
(thinking)
(does a web search to get the size of shields and human torsos)
I will buy 2, cut off the extra material so my arms and legs can move and cut off a part so they only cover torso.
(calculates)
According to this that would be about X%, so I will have a torso armor that wrights less than the Heavy Steel Corselet but provides better armor.
So I will have torso DR of 9, backed by a ablative DR of Y with penetration at Z total points.
My Armoury(bodyarmor) skill is..
GM:..
Player 2: Make one for me too
Player 3: I want also arm and leg armors made of the same stuff...
GM: (Bangs his head at the desk a few times)
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:46 PM   #42
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin
Shields were made much more resilient for 4e. I used to say this was an accidental misformatting of the (much more reasonable) 3e data. Kromm told me it was deliberate and now I just say it was a mistake instead of an accident. :)
Ugh.. deliberate?

I thought the default rules of shields not breaking would be enough for people in the "shields are durable crowd", so the optional rules of shields breaking should then really have been realistic for the people who want realism.. so that we do not need to make our own rules.
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Old 02-04-2009, 08:14 AM   #43
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby
Apparently your group is not like mine..
...
I will buy 2, cut off the extra material so my arms and legs can move and cut off a part so they only cover torso.
...
LOL. That was great. Almost as good as the "brain armor" of 3e.
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:27 PM   #44
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

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Originally Posted by Green-Neck View Post
The realistic armour value for the shield and armour is DR 3.5 in this case. Actually it should be 1.75 given the hollow points used.
One thing to remember is that in RL most hollow points have better penetrating than GURPS suggests. Another thing is that .22 LR has a much better penetration than most RPG models suggest.
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:32 PM   #45
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Incidentally, with ST 14 and a staff sling throwing lead shot, you get as much damage as a 9mm pistol. Wow.
Strength-based damage scales too well compared to the gun/beam damage scaling, This is a known problem with no easy fix, as fixing it means tearing apart one scaling rule or the other (the most likely candidate being the ST -> chart). It's also why my favourite fantasy missile troops are ogres with slings (firing cast lead bullets, of course).
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Old 08-03-2010, 04:55 PM   #46
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
It isn't all that hard to determine what the physical volumes required for various objects. Given density of materials used for the construction of shields, it isn't all that hard to determine what any given shield's weight should be based on the materials used. For example, Birch has a density of 41 lbs per cubic foot. Iron has a density of 489 lbs per cubic foot. Leather has a density of about 58.98 lbs per cubic foot.

If one presumes that the DR of that Birchwood plywood shield is about equal to 1" thick wood (per page 558 of GURPS CAMPAIGNS), then any other DR bonuses to the shield have to stem from either (or both) leather and/or iron being added to the shield's facing.
What you can do at this point is grab VE2 (yes, it's for 3e, but for now it's still a useful guide) and look up how many pounds of something it takes to get 1DR per square foot. Wood comes in at about 1lb/ft^2 per 1DR, or 1/40 x 12 = ~0.3" per DR (~3.3DR per inch).

Leather is given as 0.06 lbs/DR, but is flexible (strangle generous, and suggests that WWI tanks should probably have been covered in a laminate of hide and linen cloth). That's 82DR/inch, which is clearly ridiculous, so we'll assume it's just a denser wood (and we can assume it counts as rigid if it's moulded over and backed by the shield's wooden component), in which case it's ~5DR/inch.

So, a shield of 3/4" wood faced by 1/4" of leather gives us about 0.75 x 3.3 + 0.25 x 5 = DR3.725, which we could round to DR4. It also weighs (0.75 x 41 + 0.25 x 59) / 12 = 3.8 pounds per square foot, so a round shield 3" in diameter would weigh 19 pounds, plus a bit for the grips, etc. - say 20 pounds, and thus have 22 Health.

Now, as a shield is a thin object, clearly the rules stating that they only use their DR vs bullets, etc. apply. However, they'd get to use the extra 22/4 = 5.5DR against crushing and slashing blows, but only when seeing if the shield protects the wearer, so it won't last long if a big guys decides to target the shield directly.
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:37 PM   #47
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

So, WILL the Low-Tech supplement give more realistic rules for shields, and, if so, will they also factor in how bullets interact with them (granted, outside the scope of most TL0-3 civilizations, but it might be good to include it then, rather than leave a schism in the rule that will be filled later on)?

Last edited by The Resistance; 08-03-2010 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:44 PM   #48
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

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Originally Posted by The Resistance View Post
So, WILL the Low-Tech supplement give more realistic rules for shields, and, if so, will they also factor in how bullets interact with them (granted, outside the scope of most TL0-3 civilizations, but it might be good to include it then, rather than leave a schism in the rule that will be filled later on)?
Yes to the first, but no to the latter.

There are no new rules for how bullets or other pi attacks interact with the Damage to Objects rules. Just expect that you'd need to shoot pretty damn often at a given shield to ruin it, but if you just want to kill the bearer, treat the shield as concealment and fire through it.

Mind you, a heavy laminated shield might actually serve to deflect pistol bullets, but against a real battlefield weapon, you're out of luck.
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:47 PM   #49
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

By the way, are the TL7 plastic riot shields (option in Characters) and the Force Shield (also in Characters) completely okay as-is? How about the other shields from High-Tech?
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Old 08-03-2010, 05:54 PM   #50
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Default Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?

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By the way, are the TL7 plastic riot shields (option in Characters) and the Force Shield (also in Characters) completely okay as-is? How about the other shields from High-Tech?
The Force Shield is *shrug* superscience, so who cares? It's as good as you want it to be and any stats will have zero relation to any realistic metric.

As for the High-Tech shields, those look realistic enough. Can stop rifle bullets, but are usually penetrated by anything higher or if the enemy is using AP rounds.

Generally, if Characters has a given technology that is also present in a more focused gear catalog book, use the latter stats if you want realism and accuracy and the former if you want a 'best guess simple model' at the time 4e was first conceived.
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