02-03-2009, 08:43 PM | #41 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
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Apparently your group is not like mine.. Player 1: (browsing through equipment lists) Oh.. look, the shields have really high DR (browse more) Oh.. and they also require 1/4 of the HP to breach. (calculates) so that is for the large shield will require 24 points. (thinking) (does a web search to get the size of shields and human torsos) I will buy 2, cut off the extra material so my arms and legs can move and cut off a part so they only cover torso. (calculates) According to this that would be about X%, so I will have a torso armor that wrights less than the Heavy Steel Corselet but provides better armor. So I will have torso DR of 9, backed by a ablative DR of Y with penetration at Z total points. My Armoury(bodyarmor) skill is.. GM:.. Player 2: Make one for me too Player 3: I want also arm and leg armors made of the same stuff... GM: (Bangs his head at the desk a few times) |
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02-03-2009, 08:46 PM | #42 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
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I thought the default rules of shields not breaking would be enough for people in the "shields are durable crowd", so the optional rules of shields breaking should then really have been realistic for the people who want realism.. so that we do not need to make our own rules. |
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02-04-2009, 08:14 AM | #43 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
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08-03-2010, 04:27 PM | #44 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
One thing to remember is that in RL most hollow points have better penetrating than GURPS suggests. Another thing is that .22 LR has a much better penetration than most RPG models suggest.
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." |
08-03-2010, 04:32 PM | #45 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
Strength-based damage scales too well compared to the gun/beam damage scaling, This is a known problem with no easy fix, as fixing it means tearing apart one scaling rule or the other (the most likely candidate being the ST -> chart). It's also why my favourite fantasy missile troops are ogres with slings (firing cast lead bullets, of course).
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." |
08-03-2010, 04:55 PM | #46 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
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Leather is given as 0.06 lbs/DR, but is flexible (strangle generous, and suggests that WWI tanks should probably have been covered in a laminate of hide and linen cloth). That's 82DR/inch, which is clearly ridiculous, so we'll assume it's just a denser wood (and we can assume it counts as rigid if it's moulded over and backed by the shield's wooden component), in which case it's ~5DR/inch. So, a shield of 3/4" wood faced by 1/4" of leather gives us about 0.75 x 3.3 + 0.25 x 5 = DR3.725, which we could round to DR4. It also weighs (0.75 x 41 + 0.25 x 59) / 12 = 3.8 pounds per square foot, so a round shield 3" in diameter would weigh 19 pounds, plus a bit for the grips, etc. - say 20 pounds, and thus have 22 Health. Now, as a shield is a thin object, clearly the rules stating that they only use their DR vs bullets, etc. apply. However, they'd get to use the extra 22/4 = 5.5DR against crushing and slashing blows, but only when seeing if the shield protects the wearer, so it won't last long if a big guys decides to target the shield directly.
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Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history." |
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08-03-2010, 05:37 PM | #47 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Pacific Northwest
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
So, WILL the Low-Tech supplement give more realistic rules for shields, and, if so, will they also factor in how bullets interact with them (granted, outside the scope of most TL0-3 civilizations, but it might be good to include it then, rather than leave a schism in the rule that will be filled later on)?
Last edited by The Resistance; 08-03-2010 at 05:40 PM. |
08-03-2010, 05:44 PM | #48 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
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There are no new rules for how bullets or other pi attacks interact with the Damage to Objects rules. Just expect that you'd need to shoot pretty damn often at a given shield to ruin it, but if you just want to kill the bearer, treat the shield as concealment and fire through it. Mind you, a heavy laminated shield might actually serve to deflect pistol bullets, but against a real battlefield weapon, you're out of luck.
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08-03-2010, 05:47 PM | #49 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: The Pacific Northwest
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
By the way, are the TL7 plastic riot shields (option in Characters) and the Force Shield (also in Characters) completely okay as-is? How about the other shields from High-Tech?
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08-03-2010, 05:54 PM | #50 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles?
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As for the High-Tech shields, those look realistic enough. Can stop rifle bullets, but are usually penetrated by anything higher or if the enemy is using AP rounds. Generally, if Characters has a given technology that is also present in a more focused gear catalog book, use the latter stats if you want realism and accuracy and the former if you want a 'best guess simple model' at the time 4e was first conceived.
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