TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles? - Page 3

Ulzgoroth · 02-01-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

I never checked, but I've always assumed that in 4E, shields couldn't take HP damage from bullet-type attacks, at least not small bullets like 5.56.

Being homogeneous they won't take much damage from a bullet as it punches through, but I don't think there's any rule that prevents them from taking any, or even caps the damage.

weby · 02-01-2009, 10:40 AM

The only rule that I found about shield penetration is the one in B484 saying that 1/4 of the HP is needed for penetration.

Sam Cade · 02-01-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green-Neck

The .223 was fired at 25m range with hollow point rounds.

A .223 Hollowpoint won't penetrate both sides of a medium sized pumpkin so is a pretty bad choice to gauge the penetrative abilities of 5.56 nato vis-à-vis light cover. Its an interesting phenomena, since the smalbore hollowpoint is intended to fragment (unlike a HP for a pistol) completely, thus expending in energy as quickly as possible the projectile is very fragile and comes entirely apart at the slightest barrier, and the expanding cone of dust sized specks left after impact don't have enough mass to penetrate.

Some serious scientific testing of various 5.56 versus hard barriers into gelatin has been done and is floating around.

Pmandrekar · 02-01-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip

It has been suggested by a colleague that we should have used a pig torso, as per those fine practitioners of scientific methodology, the Myth Busters. Unfortunately, the nearest we could have come to this was to staple both of Greenneck's wife's chickens together. Instead we used all the telephone books in the house...

Yeah. Pig tissue and skin are generally used in a number of areas to simulate human flesh. I work in forensic research, and I run across uses of pig tissue all the time.

-P.

Luke Bunyip · 02-01-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Cade

A .223 Hollowpoint won't penetrate both sides of a medium sized pumpkin so is a pretty bad choice to gauge the penetrative abilities of 5.56 nato vis-à-vis light cover.

Twas a Sunday arvo, and Greenneck just happened to stumble across this thread, and say "Hey, lets check this out". Given his ammo needs, he did not have the option of using full metal jacketed ammo. Feral goats in this part of the world rarely wear body armour :P

But, yes, it was not exactly what was asked for. Having said that, two things leap out. Firstly, even hollow point would ponentially stop a legionary. Secondly, even though it was not exactly the answer to the question, it was, IMHO, in the league of oranges vs lemons, rather than apples vs oranges.

Not sure on the availablity on FMJ ammo down here for us members of the general public.

Luke Bunyip · 02-01-2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pmandrekar

Yeah. Pig tissue and skin are generally used in a number of areas to simulate human flesh. I work in forensic research, and I run across uses of pig tissue all the time.

-P.

Out of curiousity, do you have any comments regarding the substitution of telephone books as a stand in for body tissue?

Sam Cade · 02-01-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip

Out of curiousity, do you have any comments regarding the substitution of telephone books as a stand in for body tissue?

Wet news print gets you around 70% of penetration as compared with calibrated ballistics gelatin IIRC.

Sam Cade · 02-01-2009, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip

Out of curiousity, do you have any comments regarding the substitution of telephone books as a stand in for body tissue?

Wet news print gets you around 70% of penetration as compared with calibrated ballistics gelatin IIRC.

Green-Neck · 02-01-2009, 02:58 PM

i suppose the point is - if a HP can penetrate the sheild and armour a FMJ will do it more so.
also to weby's point about about the bodkin points from a bow doing as much damage as a .223 hp - yes broadheads perhaps should be treated like HP's. i've hunted with a crossbow with expanding broadheads, and they do significantly more damage than feild tips. however the reality check for .223 vs bow should show a difference in damage - the arrow is moving at perhaps 200 fps, vs 3500 fps. the arrow kills by cutting, the bullet by turning a tube of flesh into jelly though the animal.

Brass Bricks · 02-01-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nymdok

My bad. I thought he was actually compensated for that work. As it turns out he runs his website on donations. That being said, i think the site has merit when penetration is discussed, if only qualitatively.

Nymdok

His name is "Old Painless". He's a nice guy, and shooting stuff is fun.

God bless Texas.

02-01-2009, 10:40 AM	#22
weby Join Date: Oct 2008	Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles? The only rule that I found about shield penetration is the one in B484 saying that 1/4 of the HP is needed for penetration.

02-01-2009, 02:58 PM	#29
Green-Neck Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Fryers Forest Australia	Re: TL3 shields work as cover vs modern rifles? i suppose the point is - if a HP can penetrate the sheild and armour a FMJ will do it more so. also to weby's point about about the bodkin points from a bow doing as much damage as a .223 hp - yes broadheads perhaps should be treated like HP's. i've hunted with a crossbow with expanding broadheads, and they do significantly more damage than feild tips. however the reality check for .223 vs bow should show a difference in damage - the arrow is moving at perhaps 200 fps, vs 3500 fps. the arrow kills by cutting, the bullet by turning a tube of flesh into jelly though the animal.