Are arrows prices too low?

[chris1982]

One very important fact might be that in times of war the demand for weapons is higher than the supply driving the prices up... Maybe supply of bows was good but not enough high quality arrows - voila different prices.

[DanHoward]

I think the price is about right for basic off-the-shelf arrows. You could write a fairly decent Pyramid article just on arrows if you want to get more detailed.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by chris1982

One very important fact might be that in times of war the demand for weapons is higher than the supply driving the prices up... Maybe supply of bows was good but not enough high quality arrows - voila different prices.

Could very well be true. Many Englishmen would own bows, which didn't break all too often. But arrows would be constantly used up during war... driving up the price.

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by nik1979

I think prices for arrows are x4 to x6* as much being commissioned or bought from a merchant's inventory when bought at small prices, or when a character happens to be a quartermaster or a steward bargaining with a supplier (typically guild) might get it at less than average cost when commissioning enough work that mass production can bring the price at average.

But in the medieval period, arrows were one of the few items which were mass produced and the data I am working from is mostly from people buying arrows in bulk to supply armies, so they should theoretically be about as cheap as they can be (assuming that pork-barrel spending on military equipment wasn't widespread in the middle ages).

Originally Posted by chris1982

One very important fact might be that in times of war the demand for weapons is higher than the supply driving the prices up... Maybe supply of bows was good but not enough high quality arrows - voila different prices.

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Could very well be true. Many Englishmen would own bows, which didn't break all too often. But arrows would be constantly used up during war... driving up the price.

That seems somewhat plausible. We know that the English had a heavy demand for arrows in this period thanks to their ongoing wars with the French and their reliance on bowmen as the majority of their infantry. Arrowheads were imported from the mainland and in 1356 the Black Prince complained that he couldn't find any arrows for sale at home...

Originally Posted by Edward of Woodstock

'...no arrows can be obtained from England because the king has caused to be arrested and taken for his use all the arrows that can be found anywhere there...'

However, while it seems likely that bows wouldn't need replacing that often, there does seem to have been a great demand for them as well. Military supply records generally indicate more money being spent on bows than on arrows and on average they seem to have felt that one bow would be needed for roughly every three archers in a campaign, so there must have been a significant amount of breakage or loss (since it seems highly unlikely that a trained archer wouldn't own a bow... although maybe people used to have a single bow per household, sharing it's use or something).

On consideration, it becomes somewhat obvious why the writers and playtesters didn't want to get bogged down in price discussions...

[sjard]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Unfortunately that will segue into the weight of individual arrows which is another can of worms.

Originally Posted by hal

4 shillings per hundredweight, works out to 48 silver pennies per hundredweight, which works out to roughly 24 day's labor for unskilled labor.

Correction: in 1626, that is more likely to be roughly 12 day's labor, as I seem to recall that an unskilled laborer was closer to 3 to 4 pence per day. Oops.

Just for ease of discussion lets go with the arrow weight listed in the basic set (all other arguments aside). That is roughly 10 arrows per pound, with a hundredweight being 112 pounds... 1,120 arrows for that 4 shillings.

About 48 arrows per penny. Doesn't sound too bad. Maybe a bit on the expensive side.

[hal]

Originally Posted by sjard

Just for ease of discussion lets go with the arrow weight listed in the basic set (all other arguments aside). That is roughly 10 arrows per pound, with a hundredweight being 112 pounds... 1,120 arrows for that 4 shillings.

About 48 arrows per penny. Doesn't sound too bad. Maybe a bit on the expensive side.

Doing the Math in GURPS terms AND historical terms:

If 4 pence is roughly an unskilled laborer's income per day, the equivalent income in GURPS dollars would be (assuming unskilled labor is treated as struggling income):

$700 (TL 3 average income) / 2 (wealth multiplier for struggling job) / 24 (number of working days in a month assuming a 6 day work week) = $14.58

Dividing 1120 by 48 silver pennies (ie 4 shillings) gives us 23 arrows per silver penny. Multiplied by 4 for average income per day for unskilled worker, and that works out to 93 arrows per $14.58. Clearly less than the cost given in GURPS as it stands now.

The alternative is to use the rule sfrom GURPS LOW TECH COMPANION 3 for what it takes to produce a given item based on the cost of its materials, plus a calculation based on the daily income of the individual in question.

One question that does come to mind in all of this is that of what the quality of those arrows are. If they are mass produced for use in massed volleys, the quality of the arrow may not need to be of the highest, and shortcuts may have been taken.

Just speculating aloud ;)

AFTERTHOUGHT: It occurs to me to wonder if perhaps 1626 might be deemed TL 4 instead of TL 3. If so, all that does is change the calculations where instead of $700 for average income, it becomes $800. Doesn't much change the end result however.

[hal]

Using GURPS LOW TECH COMPANION 3:

Armorer per month: $1900

Weight of arrow = .1 lb
Cost of Arrow = $2

Monthly labor rate = .55 x 1900 or $1045.

Medieval arrowhead 15 grams. It would take 100 arrowheads to weigh 3.31 lbs, which would have a materials cost of $6.90 per pound or $22.40.

100 arrows x .1 (weight of Arrows per GURPS), would have a wood/fletching weight of 10 lbs less the arrowhead weight of 3.31 lbs, or roughly 6.69 lbs for the wood. Since arrowshafts are not processed (ie sawn) wood, one presumes one should use the raw wood cost on page 22. Since I can't imagine it being "simple raw wood", I'm inclined to double the cost, but I won't for purposes of this post.

Cost per pound of wood is .25.

6.69 lbs x .25 = $1.67

Total materials cost is: $22.40 + $1.67 = $24.07

100 arrows costs $200, less the materials cost of $24.07 results in the labor costs.

$200 - 24.07 = $175.93

So, $175.93 is the labor cost overall to manufacture the arrows. Monthly Labor rate is $1045, but that is too large to divide at this point, so lets get the daily labor rate for the fletcher. Daily labor rates for the fletcher works out to be 1045/25, or $41.8 per day. Divding $175.93 by 41.8 gives us an estimated labor rate of 4.21 days to produce 100 arrows. This is roughly 23 arrows per day.

(just crunching the numbers - no particular point to be made here)

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by sjard

Just for ease of discussion lets go with the arrow weight listed in the basic set (all other arguments aside). That is roughly 10 arrows per pound, with a hundredweight being 112 pounds... 1,120 arrows for that 4 shillings.

About 48 arrows per penny. Doesn't sound too bad. Maybe a bit on the expensive side.

If we care about the exact price of arrows why are we handwabing the weight? I have more condifence that the weight is wrong than the price.

Under the rule of thumb used for modern hunting arrows (10-15 grains per lb of pull) an 80-lb pull long bow should use 2-3 ounce arrows. Historical war arrows might be even heavier.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Under the rule of thumb used for modern hunting arrows (10-15 grains per lb of pull) an 80-lb pull long bow should use 2-3 ounce arrows. Historical war arrows might be even heavier.

They were. Up to 4 oz., easily.