should Neutralize require Link+10% to be carried on a touch?

[Plane]

Normally to touch someone you need to do either an attack (ie punch or grapple) or a parry against an attack a foe initiated...

If this is included in the Attack maneuver used to initiate Neutralize then it doesn't distinguish any difficulty between "touch doing nothing" and "touch doing neutralize".

We can't exactly interpret it as "neutralize is a free action so long as you're touching someone" of course, since it still costs an attack even if you don't need to establish contact (ie a foe has decided to grapple you)

It seems like what you could do (same with Leech) might be "an attack maneuver only usable against someone you're already in contact with" but that we might add Link+10% if you wanted to combine the attack-advantage's activation with your ST-based attack like a punch or grapple.

[Arith Winterfell]

As I understand it (drawing from the examples in Psionic Powers) you simply add the modifier Melee, C (C for close range) to the advantage in question.

You can see examples of that in the telepathy powers, where the 1st level of the powers requires a skin to skin contact (using both Melee and Contact Agent modifiers), then their second level requiring just a non-skin to skin touch using just the Melee, C modifier. By default (according to my limited understanding) Melee, C modifier includes the ability to still parry an attack, removing the ability to parry with the attack uses an additional "no parry" modifier to Melee.

Leech already requires you to be engaged in a continuous long touch though, I didn't think Neutralize had that requirement. So as far as I understand it, with Melee, C you just need to touch their body (not their skin to skin though) for the power to trigger.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Arith Winterfell

As I understand it (drawing from the examples in Psionic Powers) you simply add the modifier Melee, C (C for close range) to the advantage in question,

Neutralize is touch-only by default. See Powers p9, where Neutralize is one of the examples:

Originally Posted by Powers 9

Normally ranged abilities, like Innate Attack, have the Melee Attack limitation (p. B112) if they charge up a hand or other body part for striking. Touch-only abilities, such as Neutralize and Possession, require Ranged (p. B107) to work at a distance.

So, no need (or possibility) to add Melee Attack.

Neutralize is an "attack". (See Powers p11, in the "Alternative Abilities" box.) There's no special cost or action required to choose which of several possibilities of attack you might use. "Touch for no damage, punch, or Neutralize" is the same sort of choice as "sw/cutt, or thr/imp" with your pointy sword -- as is "touch their shoulder for no damage to dub them a knight". With any attack, you can always "pull your punches" by choosing less ST for dealing damage, including ST 1 for 0 damage (B401, in the "Subduing a Foe" box).

[Inky]

Is it correct that the same doesn't apply to Innate Attack - you need the Variable enhancement to be able to pull a punch with one of those?

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Inky

Is it correct that the same doesn't apply to Innate Attack?

Yes. Abilities that aren't "attacks" are variable by default (assuming they have levels of effect). Attacks need the Variable Enhancement. "Pulling your punches" applies only to attacks where the damage is based on ST.

Note that abilities built with Melee Attack are not ST-based. They're "powered" by the Innate Attack and do their own damage regardless of the character's ST. There is a "ST-based" Enhancement for Melee Attack -- but it _adds_ ST-based damage to the base Innate Attack damage, rather than convert the whole attack to only ST-based damage. For the purpose of pulling punches, I'd let a character pull the ST-based part of the damage of a Melee Attack (ST-based), but not the IA portion -- unless the build includes Variable. (I'd let that modifier apply only to the IA portion of the attack, but in this case the math doesn't work that way; ST-based is just another modifier to the IA, so the cost of Variable is based only on the IA portion anyway.)

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Arith Winterfell

Leech already requires you to be engaged in a continuous long touch though, I didn't think Neutralize had that requirement. So as far as I understand it, with Melee, C you just need to touch their body (not their skin to skin though) for the power to trigger.

The way I figure Leech works is you establish contact, use an attack, nothing happens instantaneously, but 1 second later if the contact is still intact (best way to assure that is a grapple) the damage/healing happens.

Neutralize OTOH would be that you establish contact, use an attack, happens instantly.

The issue for either is: if contact is not already established (eg someone has grappled you) then you must follow normal parameters to establish it (such as a grapple) but is that consecutive to initiating them (attack then attack) or concurrent (one attack, start both processes)

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Neutralize is touch-only by default. See Powers p9, where Neutralize is one of the examples

It's interesting how they lump "neutralize and possession" together though.

B75's "concentrate for one second and physically touch him" sounds like possibly 2 maneuvers to initiate : an attack maneuver to establish touch (unless of course they're already grappling you without you needing to initiate that) and then a Concentrate maneuver.

I'm thinking possibly rewording as "concentrate for one second while physically touching the target" could be clearer though?

Then again magic has "touch-casting" which also involves initiating contact and I don't know if that's meant to be adding in Attack on top of Concentrate...

The very nature of magic is (short of comparmentalized mind) you can't be taking other maneuvers while doing your Concentrates, which would mean to touch-cast you would need to establish contact before beginning the spell and maintain it the entire time, as opposed to just touching at the end of casting : interrupting that chain of concentrates would flub the spell.

You can parry during a Concentrate maneuver so that's one possible in, and with perks like "Sacrificial Parry" it need not be toward someone actually already trying to touch you.

Maybe a solution is to modify that to create a parry-based touch against people not making attacks?

http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...9&postcount=15
"Parry counts as low-damage attack (-1)"
"Defense engages someone who isn't attacking (-1)"

Aggressive Parry / Grabbing Parry are usually only allowed for those with combat skills, so to open that option to anybody would probably be something like building another -1 or -2 into the basic penalty, as if you had to purchase "Technique Adaptation" to offset it.

[ravenfish]

My instinct would be to say that, just as Concentrate can include doing a complicated dance in the course of spellcasting, it can also include attempting to touch someone. On the other hand, I note that Melee spells (i.e., those requiring touch to be effective) are explicitly called out as requiring the touch to be made as an attack on a subsequent turn after the casting is completed. Magic is sufficiently different from normal GURPS abilities that I hesitate to take this as a firm precedent, but it might at least be taken as a sign of what the designers thought appropriate.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

My instinct would be to say that, just as Concentrate can include doing a complicated dance in the course of spellcasting, it can also include attempting to touch someone.

Representing a dance could be thought of a the "step" you get in concentrate (indeed in 3e casters didn't get the usual step for a concentrate if they had to do footwork, only got it if it didn't require footwork) whereas hand movements could probably be represted as "parrying nothing".

It would be super weird for example if you were equally competent at doing unarmed parries when doing these gestures vs using a concentrate to do non-gesture casting (where your hands would be entirely unbusy and prepared to deflect attacks)