[MA] Best dirty-fighting style for a callous weakling?

[Maz]

Molokh, did are your character able to use improvised or small weapons? Is he going to fight in straight up streetfights or just able to protect himself?

Originally Posted by aesir23

Hmmm...funny that I missed that.

Heh, yeah, I thought so too :)

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Molokh

It's no worse than a low-DX fighter (compensated by high skill), or a low-HT one (usually compensated by HP and/or, if available, DR).

No, it is – really, low ST is a lot worse. Despite what skill minmaxers claim, ST and not DX is the God Score for warriors in GURPS. It determines what weapons (of any TL) you can manage without massive penalties, how deadly your low-tech weapons will be, how much armor you can wear and still move, how many hits you can take (HP = ST for most people), and when the fight finally moves to grappling, as most fights do, whether you'll be able to break free or simply be pinned and have horrible things done to you. Low DX and HT are worth the same, not less, because they present equally bad problems . . . but many of those problems aren't in combat.

I'll simply admit that GURPS is designed so that high-ST fighters will do better than low-ST ones. This is especially true in 4e. I'd say that "I made my character deliberately ineffective in unarmed combat, how do I make it effective anyway?" is fairly accurate.

At low ST, your best bet is to flee, so I'll recommend Judo to get a parry and a chance to throw an enemy on the ground as you run away, along with maxing out the Judo-based Evade technique. If I had to trade 20 points of ST for it, I might consider Basic Move+2 [10], Technique Mastery (Evade) [1], Judo (H) DX-1 [2], Evade (A) Judo+7 [7]. On even a DX 10, HT 10 person, that's Basic Move 7 and Evade-16, which means being able to escape from most fights. On some DX 14, HT 10 skinny ninja chick, that's Basic Move 8 and Evade-20, which means being able to escape from just about all fights at will.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Maz

Molokh, did are your character able to use improvised or small weapons? Is he going to fight in straight up streetfights or just able to protect himself?

Note: this isn't any specific character. Usually my mêlée-capable ST 8 builds are Judo-based. But after watching the movie, I got interested in alternatives. Anyway, I think the both the unarmed and the improvisedly-armed versions are interesting. The original idea came from a high school environment, but real adventurers should be able to handle bigger threats (and can risk breaking the law more heavily).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

I'll simply admit that GURPS is designed so that high-ST fighters will do better than low-ST ones. This is especially true in 4e. I'd say that "I made my character deliberately ineffective in unarmed combat, how do I make it effective anyway?" is fairly accurate.

On one hand, I'm glad that ST got more useful point for point, compared to 3e. On the other, it sounds as if the ST-dominant character is the 'one true way' to build combatants now. I hope that's an exaggeration . . . but is it?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kromm

No, it is – really, low ST is a lot worse. Despite what skill minmaxers claim, ST and not DX is the God Score for warriors in GURPS.

Skill minimaxers are generally unimpressed with DX in 4e for combat characters; it's generally only worthwhile if you have non-combat skills you want to buff as well.

[weby]

You can build low ST chars that work fine compared to high ST.

But as said, the trick is to make sure they have enough move and can keep the distance normally and as said can escape if grabbled.

For example a heroic archer based build with high move can do move and attacks and shoot through the heaviest plate at a low ST. At higher TLs use gunslinger to get the same effect.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by Molokh

On one hand, I'm glad that ST got more useful point for point, compared to 3e. On the other, it sounds as if the ST-dominant character is the 'one true way' to build combatants now. I hope that's an exaggeration . . . but is it?

I have built High DX-Low ST fighters with high basic speed,move and dodge scores that imo are just as, if not more, effective than the stronghouses. You need a fair amount of points to pull it off, but the ability to just not get hit, via dodge and high move and generally just be better at your success rolls can be used to great effect against lesser agile builds, no matter how strong they are.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Molokh

On one hand, I'm glad that ST got more useful point for point, compared to 3e. On the other, it sounds as if the ST-dominant character is the 'one true way' to build combatants now. I hope that's an exaggeration . . . but is it?

Point for point, your best investment as a combat character is usually '+1 combat skill', though at very low levels improving your damage is more important (what those levels are depends on the damage adds you can get; in general I'd rate +1 skill as about as good as around +15% damage, and for melee combat also around +10% hit points, so the magic number is generally in the ST 12-14 range).

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Molokh

On one hand, I'm glad that ST got more useful point for point, compared to 3e. On the other, it sounds as if the ST-dominant character is the 'one true way' to build combatants now. I hope that's an exaggeration . . . but is it?

It is IMO. Thanks to the hit location system.
But it does require a lot more to be an effecient fighter with low ST than high ST. And you really do need more focus on technique. So saying no to martial arts, weapon and TBaM/WM really = "deliberately ineffective in combat". and in addition to needing better technique you also need better defense, as you are less likely to one-hit-kill the enemy and you, yourself are more vulnerable and so it's more important to avoid getting hit.

In fact with only ST:8 you only have a thrust dam of 1d-3. Thats normal punch of 1d-4 and an eye-poke of 1d-6. You NEED skill bonus or weapons to do any damage at all.


The best for a low ST fighter would be to have a thrust/impaling weapon and go for vitals and/or eyes.

If fighting completely unarmed I would still go for the eyes as it is the only location which is "never" protected, and you only need to do over 1/10 HP, damage to make a crippling injury, forcing knockdown checks and blinding the opponent. However as an eye-poke would only deal 1d-6 you would have to always use 1 FP to boost dam AND have +2 from karate bonus. for a total of 1d-2. And then you would still only do enough dam 50% of the hits.

With Tageted attack (eye) maxed out and a high skill you could get a 14 skill without too many poitns used on it.



It is possible, and you are going to save about 50 points for having a low ST (a decent fighter should have at least ST:13 IMO). Those 50 pts can buy what you need in skills and techniques. But you do need high martials arts skills and techniques. You can't do it with brawling alone... not unless you introduce improvised weapons.

[Kromm]

I didn't say that ST is the only thing that matters. What I said was that reducing ST below average significantly gimps a warrior. Warriors can get by on average or only slightly above-average ST if they have other factors like good DX, HT, and Basic Speed; advantages such as Combat Reflexes and Weapon Master; and/or high skill.

Still, damage is important, and that means ST for those who rely on muscles. In particular, damage bonuses for Weapon Master, while a way to compensate somewhat for low ST, are skill-based and awarded per die of basic ST damage, so they're more pronounced for skilled, strong fighters. Likewise, the weapons with the largest damage adds also have the steepest ST requirements. And at higher TLs, where the muscles don't matter as much, ST 8 means relying mostly on backup pistols, light carbines and SMGs, and the lightest assault rifles, while even ST 10 gives you all but the heaviest pistols, proper battle and sniper rifles, underbarrel grenade launchers, shoulder-launched missiles, and even light flamethrowers.

Moreover, survival relies a fair bit on ST. A ST 10, HT 8 character can wear 56% more armor than a ST 8, HT 10 character, which at modest Wealth translates into about DR 3-4 vs. DR 2 at low TLs. The stronger character also has +2 HP. Faced with other ST 8-10 fighters doing around 1d damage, the stronger one won't even need to roll HT most of the time. At higher TLs, most weapons kill in one shot if they pierce your armor, almost regardless of HT, so the ST to move whilst lugging trauma plates becomes vital. Inasmuch as you can survive, that's more about your medic's skill and gear than your HT, and stronger medics can carry more gear.

Thus, while it makes little sense for a warrior to have less-than-average DX or HT (I wasn't knocking HT above!), it makes almost no sense for him to have below-average ST. There are plenty of paths to "effective warrior," but few of them lead through the land of reduced ST. Which is as it should be . . . I can't think of a type of serious, career warrior that wasn't consistently chosen for physical power.