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Old 10-16-2021, 02:12 PM   #21
maximara
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Default Re: Fractional TL's

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Originally Posted by scc View Post
You know, this is what I get for posting ideas before I go to bed, sure I don't need up checking it every half-four for the rest of the day hoping for replies and instead wake up to a bunch of replies, but it seems like I always miss a thing or two, in this case I forgot to say that I'm only thinking of using it for formula's for gear (and the like), that is for stuff like weights, volumes and costs in Vehicles
IMHO fractional TL is the wrong way to deal with something like that. Think about a fully blinged out 1946 Cadillac vs a barebones army surplus Jeep. Both are TL6 but all the extras (as well as the brand name) makes the Cadillac far more expensive than the Jeep.

Supply chains and taxes will cause equipment to fluctuate in cost far more than TL will. In the US you can have state sales tax, county sales tax, and city sales tax. New Mexico for example ranges from 5.1250% to 9.2500% sales tax.
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Old 10-17-2021, 08:59 AM   #22
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Default Re: Fractional TL's

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We have enough problems nailing down just when an automobile (TL6) gets improved to the next level (TL7) so trying to push the TL system any further than that is just asking for a migraine.
I meant to say - my current instinct is to treat one TL’s worth of difference in equipment as a Familiarity issue rather than a whole different skill. A driver trained at TL6 can likely manage a TL7 car just fine, but may take a few minutes or hours to get the hang of some detail changes. They don’t have to learn a whole new skill.

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Look at the steam engine. What separates a TL5 steam engine from a TL6 one? I have no idea and I don't think my players would give a darn.
Actually, to be fair, steam engines do show some significant jumps, which sometimes just about correspond to GURPS TLs if you squint a bit, from low pressure to high pressure to multi-stage expansion to the big step change that was steam turbines. But at each point, the previous technology remained in use for many years in many places.
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Old 10-17-2021, 09:04 AM   #23
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Default Re: Fractional TL's

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There was a big shift around 1940 with metal-hulled monoplanes with lots and lots of instruments which meant that just crewing an aircraft had become a different kind of task which required less intuition and physical sense and more reasoning and quantitative thinking.
Note, by the way, that even there, if you start using construction method as the key point of division, you might end up putting the Spitfire and the Hurricane at different TLs…
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Old 10-17-2021, 09:51 AM   #24
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Default Re: Fractional TL's

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Note, by the way, that even there, if you start using construction method as the key point of division, you might end up putting the Spitfire and the Hurricane at different TLs…
Makes the Russian fighters with comparable performance but wooden wings a lower TL than would otherwise be justified. The Mosquito was mostly wood too wasn't it?

I'd separate planes (even jets) by engine output or some similar measure. Availability of a new and higher performance engine is the most reliable indicator of a viable new generation of military aircraft. For failed aircraft development stories "The engine wasn't ready on time" is the overwhelmingly most common cause.
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Old 10-17-2021, 10:16 AM   #25
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Default Re: Fractional TL's

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The Mosquito was mostly wood too wasn't it?
Very sophisticated wood. Plywood is a TL5 invention that actually had some refinements at TL6, and the type used in the Mozzie might even rate as early TL7. Anyhow, the Mozzie was in fact a monocoque construction, so if that's a TL7 marker...
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Old 10-17-2021, 11:55 AM   #26
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Default Re: Fractional TL's

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Originally Posted by Phil Masters View Post
Very sophisticated wood. Plywood is a TL5 invention that actually had some refinements at TL6, and the type used in the Mozzie might even rate as early TL7. Anyhow, the Mozzie was in fact a monocoque construction, so if that's a TL7 marker...
A case can be made that the Mosquito wasn't the last wooden aircraft, but the first composite one. It was initially built with casein glues, but there was an early switch to urea-formaldehyde. That glue was first made in 1884, and patented in 1919, so it's probably TL6.

The Germans used Tego film for their attempt at a similar aircraft, the Ta 154 Moskito. That's based on phenol-formaldehyde resin, but when the factory that produced it was bombed, they didn't try to build another, but went for substitutes, none of which worked properly. I suspect corruption, personally.
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Old 10-17-2021, 12:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Fractional TL's

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Originally Posted by Phil Masters View Post
I meant to say - my current instinct is to treat one TL’s worth of difference in equipment as a Familiarity issue rather than a whole different skill. A driver trained at TL6 can likely manage a TL7 car just fine, but may take a few minutes or hours to get the hang of some detail changes. They don’t have to learn a whole new skill.
Treating different TLs of a skill as separate skills is a hold over from Classic GURPS. One could argue that as far as dealing with lower TLs (-1, -3, -5, ...) a technique makes far more sense in 4e. More over this penalty applies to IQ based skills rather than skills based on other attributes.

"Technological skills based on attributes other than IQ let you use technology; they do not assume any real understanding of the science or engineering behind the tools." (Basic Set 168) For these type of skills apply a flat penalty of -1 per TL of difference between the skill and the equipment. So a TL6 soldier could fire a TL7 gun at -1 skill rather then -5.

Non IQ Tech skills are Beam Weapons†, Boating†, Driving†, Environment Suits†, Gunner†, Guns†, Liquid Projector†, Parachuting, Piloting†, Sewing, and Submarine†.

Heck, you likely would have more of a famiarility penalty within a TL than between TLs with those skills.

For example, I learned to drive in small cars back in the 1980's so driving my father's 1970 Chrysler which also had its idle set higher than normal was likely -2 to driving skill until I got use to handling that tank of a vehicle.

Then you have manual vs automatic transmissions - I have never driven a manual transmission vehicle and would likely be grinding gears with the older ones (some newer ones eliminated the need for a clutch pedal).

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Originally Posted by Phil Masters View Post
Actually, to be fair, steam engines do show some significant jumps, which sometimes just about correspond to GURPS TLs if you squint a bit, from low pressure to high pressure to multi-stage expansion to the big step change that was steam turbines. But at each point, the previous technology remained in use for many years in many places.
I was thinking of the jump between the Newcomen (1712) and Watt (~1775) steam engines where the change was so minor and yet so profound that how it operated (and was maintained) changed dramatically.
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Old 10-18-2021, 05:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: Fractional TL's

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Originally Posted by Phil Masters View Post
Actually, to be fair, steam engines do show some significant jumps, which sometimes just about correspond to GURPS TLs if you squint a bit, from low pressure to high pressure to multi-stage expansion to the big step change that was steam turbines. But at each point, the previous technology remained in use for many years in many places.
One thing I read talked about low vs high pressure steam. Low pressure you used soap rubbed on the pipe to find leaks. High pressure you wave a broom handle around and look for where it gets cut by the jet. So someone that only knows the low pressure lower TL type you find the leak by looking where the blood pool is from where it cut their hand off.

TL penalties make sense and having a fixed size simplifies things but the difference in the real world varies a lot and how bad the result of failing is also.
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