We're gonna have to rethink the TLs

[Anders]

Here's an interesting talk on science and technology in the ancient world. These people knew the distance to the moon, that the moon had an eccentric orbit, how large the world was... they had a a grain-grinding mill with 16 large water wheels that produced flour for an entire region, they had automata that could perform plays... maybe it would be more appropriate to put them at TL3 and the Dark Ages at TL 2?

[Nereidalbel]

While individual nations/states/etc had a handful of things above their general TL, the world as a whole was still TL2. One civilization being TL2 +1 (Mathematics) doesn't make the world TL3.

[Peter Knutsen]

Should TL be defined by what is possible with a massive economic stretch, i.e. what the ultra-rich can do? Or should TL be defined according to what is normal, by that which is widely available?

NASA put 4 boots on the moon in 1969, as a massive technical endavour. Arguably a pre-mature thing. Had they waited until rocket technology was mature, they could have done it safer and more cheaply.

Likewise, maybe super rich iron age age folks could pay to have 100% deterministic "robots" crafted to act out pre-scripted plays. But that was so far out of rich of ordinary iron age people that it's silly.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

NASA put 4 boots on the moon in 1969, as a massive technical endavour. Arguably a pre-mature thing. Had they waited until rocket technology was mature, they could have done it safer and more cheaply.
.

It was 12 boots and not just 4. It would have been 14 if Apollo 13 hadn't had its' problem and more than that if multiple missions had not been trimmed off the back end of the program.

The other thing is that if rocketry was not mature them it's not that much more mature now.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It was 12 boots and not just 4. It would have been 14 if Apollo 13 hadn't had its' problem and more than that if multiple missions had not been trimmed off the back end of the program.

Well, in 1969, it was eight boots (Armstrong, Aldrin, Conrad, and Bean, who wore two boots each). Four boots failed to land in 1970, and sixteen more were landed in 1971 and 1972.

[Arcanjo7Sagi]

Originally Posted by Anders

Here's an interesting talk on science and technology in the ancient world. These people knew the distance to the moon, that the moon had an eccentric orbit, how large the world was... they had a a grain-grinding mill with 16 large water wheels that produced flour for an entire region, they had automata that could perform plays... maybe it would be more appropriate to put them at TL3 and the Dark Ages at TL 2?

Well, not necessarily. Low-Tech has some examples of this kind of thing. Maybe it's just a TL2 culture with TL 3 or 4 in mathematics or astronomy.

[Turhan's Bey Company]

What about those technologies do you believe conflicts with TLs as they are currently described?

[smurf]

I see them as guides for the complexity of development.

In the early 20th century the beginnings of mechanised food production over shadowed some states wooden ploughs... that is many states had not developed the iron plough. Other places did not use the wheel, in my own city it was believed that wheels would break the cobble stones, so they used sleds until wheels finally replaced them.

Semaphore towers in France and the UK when on to develop telegraphs. Rail net works competed against canals.

Warfare, medicines, energy etc all develop at different rates. Necessity is the mother of invention and therefore it is truly difficult to have a degree of abstraction to cater for the historical development of all humanity.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Turhan's Bey Company

What about those technologies do you believe conflicts with TLs as they are currently described?

Automated mills, automated sawing machines, machines that compute a large number of astronomical parameters...

[Turhan's Bey Company]

Originally Posted by Anders

Automated mills, automated sawing machines, machines that compute a large number of astronomical parameters...

Modest use of water power (and compared to what developed in TL3, Roman use of water power was definitely modest) is already defined as part of TL2, as are orreries. Those may surprise people with a vague conception of ancient technology, but GURPS RAW already encompasses them.