10092024, 04:52 PM  #11 
Join Date: Sep 2024

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
Thanks for all the answers! I had a look at the KYOS article, and indeed it tackles the problem more neatly than I did. I used:
BL=10ˆ(ST/10), in order to give me the weight in kg (I just approximated 1kg=2lb) With an ST=540, the character would have enough force to lift the entire visible universe; so, this looks like a nice maximum value any character should have in whatever genre we're working with, no matter how ridiculous. Therefore, I decided to run some tests with it, to check the worstcase scenario. One notable problem I found is the damage such a character gives. KYOS gives a table of revised damage roll, and if my math is correct, with ST=540, the character should roll 133 dices. Some quick tests with it suggests damages on the range of 450500. Now, assuming the character HP equals its Strenght as usual, only two punches like this and this character would be knocked out. A character so strong even himself can barely stand his own power? An interesting philosophical concept, but maybe not so much gameplaywise. Other problem I found: a character with ST=240 (this one is able to lift the Earth) also rolls a lot of dices, I can't quite recall the number, but I think it gave a damage of around 120 or so. Now, this is certainly weaker than the 540's punch, but it would still take roughly 1/5 of 540's HP. Doesn't seem that much of a problem, except that, due to logarithm nature, the 240 character is 1e+30 times WEAKER than the 540 character. I don't think a character 10ˆ30 weaker should be able to take 1/5 of your HP. So, yeah, we have scaling problems on this front as well. Here are some things that could ease the impact of these problems: 1 A decidedly "shutup and play" solution would be to be guided by the Extreme Score method. Because ST is logarithmic, any multiplicaiton/division turns into a friendly add/subtract problem. Given that this method asks for the lower level to be normalized as 10, the highest difference between levels workeable is 8 (because in such a scenario, the higher level would be normalized as 18, and you can't roll 3d6 higher than this anyway). In other words, there is no reason to run a sucess roll against a character 8 points stronger; he is just too strong for you to have any chance, he wins. Speaking in terms of our ridiculous scenario above, the difference between 540 and 240 is certainly more than 8... and as such, there is no reason for the 240 character to even attempt to attack the 540. Damage Rolls might suggest there is (20% of damage per attack is pretty good), but Extreme Score says there isn't; considering that mathematics also suggets there isn't, Extreme Score helps us in this case. But as I said earlier, I admit this method is a little too blunt. 2 A way more "noble" attempt to solve this problem is by converting the Damage Rolls into a logarithmic scale as well. I've seen work done in this direction: we have Conditional Injury, for example, although I don't think it quite solve the 240X540 scenario that much (but this could be explained by the fact that its RT and WP tables follow a different logarithmic progression than the KYOS ST). Another attempt is made here by naloth. I think it has potential, but when I attempted to run it with a 540X540 battle, it looked like the battle would never end; then again, those are quite ridiculous characters to begin with, so the problem here could lie way more within the characters than naloth's method. 3 A more narrative approach is like this one suggested by Krinberry in his answer. Don't try to make the 540 dude into a real character, treat him more like a narrative concept than something to be solved by a genuine GURPS battle. 4 If nothing above works... well, then this concept is pretty much unworkable in GURPS, and we should find something else. Although I'm pretty sure at the very least the #3 suggestion should work. So far, this is what I've gathered about the topic. 
10092024, 07:10 PM  #12 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
KYoS generally uses the same scaling as Swing damage (+1d per 4 ST), which does produce a lot of oneshot hits. KYoS doesn't actually scale damage on a log scale, so it doesn't work especially well for that.

10102024, 07:16 AM  #14 
Join Date: Feb 2014

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
Another thing to look at is the Super Effort modifiers for Strength (Supers p24) or Lifting Strength (Powers p58) which do the rescaling. Not as popular as KYOS, but they're a little more simple to use, especially with GURPS Supers option to apply a "Cosmic: Rules Breaking" to allow using Reduced Fatigue cost to make it essentially alwayson.
Examples with a base ST10 character Increased ST 8 with Super Effort would be equivalent to ST 60 (50+10), but with 18 HP Increased ST 12 with Super Effort would be equivalent to ST 210 (200+10), but only 22 HP ST 19 with SE is probably the upper Hulk limit with equiv to ST 3010, and with only 29 HP, You'd probably want to buy up a little more HP to increase his mass, but most of his durability would be from Damage Resistance and Injury Tolerance:Damage Reduction. ST 26 with SE is close to Galactus unassisted by the power cosmic at equiv of 50,000 Also don't forget to use size level discounts for buying Increased ST and HP where applicable! 
10102024, 10:17 AM  #15 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
I decided to combine Logarithmic Strength and Conditional Injury. Worked out pretty well, I'd say, main thing was getting everything on a unified curve.
GURPS, by default scales damage by squares and HP by cubes, except for Spaceships where damage goes by cubes. I decided to make everything go by squares, which is also what the Super ST table does. So for every +20 to ST, you have x100 basic lift and x10 damage, and +6 Robustness. Robustness following a +1 for every 3/3/4 ST pattern. This makes ones ability to give and receive damage keep roughly in step with one another. Due to the granularity of integer values for damage, damage still follows the +1 per ST until ST 22. So this really only matters for things well outside the human norm, like super heroes. Speaking of, it removes the need for a separate "Super ST" advantage, since that whole thing was just a way to turn the linear damage and square lift into logarithmic progression.
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10102024, 10:58 AM  #16 
Join Date: Sep 2024

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
How does this damage rule work? Do we just take the number of dices rolled, say for ST=15, and multiply the final result by 10 so we can find the damage by a ST=35 character? Or is there a formula for the progression?
Last edited by Hopkins Vioreo; 10102024 at 11:02 AM. 
10102024, 11:19 AM  #17  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Kentucky, USA

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
Quote:
There was a lot of trial and error and rounding to get a nice, smooth progression. Still tinkering with it. Current form is, starting at ST 24: Thrust: 4d, 4d+2, 5d, 5d+2, 6d, 7d, 8d, 9d, 10d, 11d, 12d, 14d, 16d, 18d, 20d 22d, 24d, 28d, 32d, 36d 40d (ST 44), 45d, 50d, 55d, 60d and after that you just start adding x10. I also treat the +2 for Swing as +2 ST. So at ST 30 you would Swing for 10d not 8d+2. One interesting idea that I've yet to really work on that came out of this is differentiating between "Leverage" and "Flat Damage". Leverage gives you an effective increase in ST, while Flat Damage is just a flat bonus. So a Fine Broadsword would normally give you Swing+2 Cut, but with this system it would give you Swing+1 ST +1 Cut. For someone with normal human ST these would be identical, but for someone with ST 30, it would be the difference between 10d+2 cut and 11d+1 cut.
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GURPS Fanzine The Path of Cunning is worth a read. Last edited by Tyneras; 10102024 at 11:56 AM. 

10102024, 12:13 PM  #18 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
The big problem with logarithmic damage is that it has no easy way to deal with DR. The way CI works is
Compare LogDam to LogDR, and adjust LogDam as follows (note: this assumes a x10 = +10 damage scaling, so LogDam is probably LogST/2 or LogST/3).

10102024, 01:37 PM  #19  
Join Date: Jun 2013

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
Quote:
Code:
Result Reduction 1 7 1.5 6 2 5 3 4 5 3 7 2 10 1 Higher +0
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10102024, 01:40 PM  #20 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: House Rules  Logarihmic/Geometric Scales
Sure, that's a +6 = x10 scale, which means it needs relatively few entries  but is also extremely low resolution.

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