Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding

JimmyPlenty · 10-20-2021, 02:39 AM

EDIT: My mistake. I did not see the colors on the card were blue and black on the dice to roll.

Hey all!

Great job on the game! Super impressed. Seen something that could use some clarification.

Carbon Laminate and Plastic Cladding seem almost like the same card. The only difference is that the Laminate is more durable.

Is there a misprint somewhere? I wouldn't see the use of anything else if I can have Carbon Laminate.

Again, great job on the game!

HeatDeath · 10-20-2021, 08:52 AM

The card text is similar but the dice being referred to are radically different, so the two armors behave quite differently, even before you consider the difference in raw durability.

A blue defense dice, which is what the plastic cladding gives you, has 3 shields. Which means the plastic cladding has 50% odds of completely cancelling a point of incoming damage. But it can only absorb 1 point before it's destroyed.

The carbon laminate, otoh, absorbs 3 points of damage before being destroyed, but uses a black dice, which only has 1 shield, so it only has 1 in 6 odds of cancelling a point of damage outright.

So that's your tradeoff. For the same two build points you can have much higher ablative capacity in exchange for significantly reduced absorption capability. Really very significant differences in armor behavior. They're mathematically balanced, so which you prefer is more down to your driving style and personal taste.

HeatDeath · 10-20-2021, 08:58 AM

I think the way armor has been revamped in the game is a massive improvement. Instead of just outfitting your desired weaponry, then piling on ablative points until the weight negatively impacts your acceleration, the wide range of wildly varying armors in the expansions mean you now get to make some really interesting and subtle choices about the placement and behavior of your armor that the older system never really allowed you to.

[Yes, the solitary option of steel plate in the core set, by itself, is a bit of a blunt instrument, but I understand that the core set could only have so many cards and most people are gonna want to see more variation in the guns than in the armor, at least to start with. But seriously, check out the entire range of structure cards you get in the DA boxes. This game's armor subsystem is more expressive and flexible than many games' weaponry subsystem!]

[And yes, plastic/metal composite layering got you /close/ to this level of expressiveness, but at the expense of /substantial/ amounts of extra math during both the build phase and on-table gameplay. This is a massive improvement.]

beetle496 · 10-20-2021, 01:07 PM

Agreed @HeatDeath , this is a massive improvement over CCW. (I also agree with the developers’ choice to have more weapons rather than armor in the core set.)

Does plate/laminate/cladding armor retain its defensive die/dice possibility after taking its rated amount of hits?

Also, for armor, Green and Black die are equivalent, yes? Seems a bit of needless complication for Heavy Steel Plate to use a Green die instead of Black, like most of the other cards.

HeatDeath · 10-20-2021, 01:22 PM

No. Once a piece of structure takes its rated number of hits, it ceases to operate. You turn the card over and it no longer provides any of the bonus defense dice it did while it was intact.

Yes, greens and blacks have the same # of shields, so they are equivalent during defense rolls. I can't think of any situation or accessory offhand where wrenches might do something different during defense rolls.

beetle496 · 10-20-2021, 01:47 PM

Okay, so the plate/laminate/cladding only takes hits after all the armor on that side is gone, correct? That makes sense, since it is just like anything else mounted on that side.

But most of the types provides a chance of extra cover each time that side is attacked? Plastic Cladding is only type with 50% chance one-point damage reduction. Seems like the obviously best one.

HeatDeath · 10-20-2021, 01:54 PM

Correct. Structure is an internal component, and is indeed the first internal component on every internal damage card.

So your structure won't be affected until all your ablative armor is gone. Then you structure takes the next N hits, until it is exhausted and turned over.

But as long as your structure is still operating, even prior to your external armor being depleted, the structure's bonus defense dice, if any, are applicable to any weapon attack against that side.

Put another way, a structure card with a good defense dice effect will make your external armor last longer.

beetle496 · 11-01-2021, 07:57 PM

I am not sure it makes sense (from a BP perspective) but, based on another thread, it seems that the various cladding/laminates/plates can all stack! Is that correct?

PresidentTwoeagles · 11-01-2021, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496

I am not sure it makes sense (from a BP perspective) but, based on another thread, it seems that the various cladding/laminates/plates can all stack! Is that correct?

You can only have ONE structure card per side, as explained in the rules.

beetle496 · 11-04-2021, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PresidentTwoeagles

You can only have ONE structure card per side, as explained in the rules.

Duh! Sorry about about that!

Quote:

Originally Posted by beetle496

Plastic Cladding is only type with 50% chance one-point damage reduction. Seems like the obviously best one.

For 2 BP of course. For 1 BP, and at 3+ BP, there are not obviously better choices.

10-20-2021, 02:39 AM	#1
JimmyPlenty Join Date: Dec 2017	Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding EDIT: My mistake. I did not see the colors on the card were blue and black on the dice to roll. Hey all! Great job on the game! Super impressed. Seen something that could use some clarification. Carbon Laminate and Plastic Cladding seem almost like the same card. The only difference is that the Laminate is more durable. Is there a misprint somewhere? I wouldn't see the use of anything else if I can have Carbon Laminate. Again, great job on the game! Last edited by JimmyPlenty; 10-20-2021 at 03:19 AM.

10-20-2021, 08:52 AM	#2
HeatDeath Join Date: May 2012	Re: Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding The card text is similar but the dice being referred to are radically different, so the two armors behave quite differently, even before you consider the difference in raw durability. A blue defense dice, which is what the plastic cladding gives you, has 3 shields. Which means the plastic cladding has 50% odds of completely cancelling a point of incoming damage. But it can only absorb 1 point before it's destroyed. The carbon laminate, otoh, absorbs 3 points of damage before being destroyed, but uses a black dice, which only has 1 shield, so it only has 1 in 6 odds of cancelling a point of damage outright. So that's your tradeoff. For the same two build points you can have much higher ablative capacity in exchange for significantly reduced absorption capability. Really very significant differences in armor behavior. They're mathematically balanced, so which you prefer is more down to your driving style and personal taste.

10-20-2021, 08:58 AM	#3
HeatDeath Join Date: May 2012	Re: Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding I think the way armor has been revamped in the game is a massive improvement. Instead of just outfitting your desired weaponry, then piling on ablative points until the weight negatively impacts your acceleration, the wide range of wildly varying armors in the expansions mean you now get to make some really interesting and subtle choices about the placement and behavior of your armor that the older system never really allowed you to. [Yes, the solitary option of steel plate in the core set, by itself, is a bit of a blunt instrument, but I understand that the core set could only have so many cards and most people are gonna want to see more variation in the guns than in the armor, at least to start with. But seriously, check out the entire range of structure cards you get in the DA boxes. This game's armor subsystem is more expressive and flexible than many games' weaponry subsystem!] [And yes, plastic/metal composite layering got you /close/ to this level of expressiveness, but at the expense of /substantial/ amounts of extra math during both the build phase and on-table gameplay. This is a massive improvement.] Last edited by HeatDeath; 10-20-2021 at 09:06 AM.

10-20-2021, 01:07 PM	#4
beetle496 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Frederick, MD	Re: Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding Agreed @HeatDeath , this is a massive improvement over CCW. (I also agree with the developers’ choice to have more weapons rather than armor in the core set.) Does plate/laminate/cladding armor retain its defensive die/dice possibility after taking its rated amount of hits? Also, for armor, Green and Black die are equivalent, yes? Seems a bit of needless complication for Heavy Steel Plate to use a Green die instead of Black, like most of the other cards.

10-20-2021, 01:22 PM	#5
HeatDeath Join Date: May 2012	Re: Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding No. Once a piece of structure takes its rated number of hits, it ceases to operate. You turn the card over and it no longer provides any of the bonus defense dice it did while it was intact. Yes, greens and blacks have the same # of shields, so they are equivalent during defense rolls. I can't think of any situation or accessory offhand where wrenches might do something different during defense rolls.

10-20-2021, 01:47 PM	#6
beetle496 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Frederick, MD	Re: Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding Okay, so the plate/laminate/cladding only takes hits after all the armor on that side is gone, correct? That makes sense, since it is just like anything else mounted on that side. But most of the types provides a chance of extra cover each time that side is attacked? Plastic Cladding is only type with 50% chance one-point damage reduction. Seems like the obviously best one.

10-20-2021, 01:54 PM	#7
HeatDeath Join Date: May 2012	Re: Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding Correct. Structure is an internal component, and is indeed the first internal component on every internal damage card. So your structure won't be affected until all your ablative armor is gone. Then you structure takes the next N hits, until it is exhausted and turned over. But as long as your structure is still operating, even prior to your external armor being depleted, the structure's bonus defense dice, if any, are applicable to any weapon attack against that side. Put another way, a structure card with a good defense dice effect will make your external armor last longer.

11-01-2021, 07:57 PM	#8
beetle496 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Frederick, MD	Re: Carbon Laminate / Light Plastic Cladding I am not sure it makes sense (from a BP perspective) but, based on another thread, it seems that the various cladding/laminates/plates can all stack! Is that correct?