Emerging smokepowder weapons in my fantasy

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by martinl

Properly wrapped, it strengthens the container AND adds nasty frag. It can also strengthen whatever cap you have over the filler hole. If you use a wax coating to protect the fuze and powder, it can also be arranged to protect that from wear.

Sounds extremely practical for the cheaper kinds of ammunition.

Now if only I could figure out how thick I'd need to make ceramic casing to properly contain the smokepowder (which is functionally identical to improved black powder in this cheaper form).

I'd like to have some idea of the weight for earthernware, ceramic or glass spheres or ovoids that can contain between 1-4 oz. of smokepowder effectively. That's 2d to 4d, or so.

I have no idea whether I can guesstimate based on the container weights in LT or if I need to make extraheavy versions or what. Besides, the containers in LT are mostly too high volume for my purposes, unless I plan to keep the fragmentation material inside them as well as the explosive filler.

I guess it wouldn't do any harm to get some ideas of how heavy a ceramic ovoid designed to contain a pound of smokepowder would need to be. That would be 6d and a pretty good start for something to wrap bronze wire around, since a fragmentation sleeve will reduce the dice of explosive damage down to 4d+2 or so, judging by examples in published GURPS books (and common sense).

Finally, if I want to use a tiny amount, just enough for 1d, is a gmall glass vial enough to act as containment? And how tiny can I make it? Because if I could make a tiny little glass vial which could be embedded in a lead glans (of a size which would be 0.25 lbs. if it was pure lead and not partially hollow), that would be awesome.

Using the magical fuze, this would create explosive ammunition for anti-personnel use at much longer ranges than non-magical ammunition for slings would be lethal. Of courses, I assume the tiny vial would be fairly difficult to make, but given that the magical fuze is $250, I wouldn't blink at anything up to $30* or so.

*GURPS Low-Tech has the smallest glass container cost $0.50, which seems low, but what do I know. In any case, such a tiny vial is clearly work for a master and the labour cost is a much higher proportion of the final value than materials cost than is the case for a larger glass container. I would have to add a CF based on that.

Originally Posted by martinl

Yes, that's a couple of kettles of worms right there. However, downthread you mention a local abundance of bronze, which is much more ductile and easier to make into wire. It doesn't need to be good wire of uniform cross section and strength, so perhaps even something like a shot tower only with a thin stream of molten bronze hardening into a wire could be managed...

If they can make use of the old bronze that would be too much work to purify for use in cannon, armour or other needs that require higher grades of quality, this sounds perfect.

[Kalzazz]

The other advantages of pistols have offset the potentially inferior damage compared to slings in my games in many areas

The pistol is an extremely popular one handed weapon that is carried as a supplement to or replacement for throwing weapons by many people. Many Republic Legionnaires will carry one or two, and Republic Cataphracts frequently carry several. Long arms arent used near as much as shield use is very common

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Sling glandes going through ranks of armoured people play havoc with my supension of disbelief. I don't have a problem with supernaturally strong characters using magical slings and ammunition to achieve this effect, but it bothers me that a ST 13-14 character (or just a ST 11 one with an equivalent of Strongbow for slings*) has already exceeded the penetration of typical black powder pistols as modelled in GURPS.

This is particularly jarring in a game, such as mine, where both are used and it's obvious to the players that they are using more or less similar ammunition. They are bound to ask why the slower projectile is penetrating so much better.

*Which realistically ought to exist, in that slings are even more dependant on technique than bows, as far as velocity goes. In both cases, the people who can achive the longest ranges and highest velocities are not the ones with the bulging muscles and power lifts (high ST), but ones who have trained extensively with the weapon (high skill and perhaps specific Perks).

The article I linked in your thread on sling physics includes historical accounts of slings cracking armor, shattering swords, and causing death via fractured skulls and shattered ribs puncturing lungs, without actually penetrating the skin. The ruptured organs and internal bleeding are real killers, too. Even if a pistol ends up dealing less damage, it still has enough going in its favor that I'd rather defend myself by shooting somebody than by trying to use a sling at close range.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

The other advantages of pistols have offset the potentially inferior damage compared to slings in my games in many areas

The pistol is an extremely popular one handed weapon that is carried as a supplement to or replacement for throwing weapons by many people. Many Republic Legionnaires will carry one or two, and Republic Cataphracts frequently carry several. Long arms arent used near as much as shield use is very common

Note that slings were used by Roman legionaries in pretty much the exact way you describe pistols as being used. I'll grant that GURPS pistols have the advantage of being Easy compared to Hard and having Acc 1 compared to Acc 0, but the both the sling and the staff sling are lighter than a pistol.

Yes, it's at -3 or -2 to hit compared to someone with the same training using a pistol, but for a ST 14 heavy infantry soldier, the sling's 2d pi or the staff sling's 2d+1 vs. 1d pi to 1d+2 pi+ really counts when your opponents are armoured.

Note also the silly perverse incentive to use the sling against heavy armour and the pistols against unarmoured people, which is the exact opposite of how things work in real life.

Given that a lot of the recruits that the PCs are selecting amongst already have the Sling skill from civilian life and none of them have the Pistol skill, the RAW result is that pistols are useless, except possibly for shooting at unarmoured people. Against armour, you really want the sling.

Bah!

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

The article I linked in your thread on sling physics includes historical accounts of slings cracking armor, shattering swords, and causing death via fractured skulls and shattered ribs puncturing lungs, without actually penetrating the skin. The ruptured organs and internal bleeding are real killers, too. Even if a pistol ends up dealing less damage, it still has enough going in its favor that I'd rather defend myself by shooting somebody than by trying to use a sling at close range.

The pistol doesn't do less damage. It can't, considering that some of them are using lead bullets of the same weight as the sling, but simply propelling them at 200m/s to 450m/s instead of 30m/s to 90m/s.

If the damage system has the slower weapon penetrating armour better, that needs to be fixed in order not to cause the world to end through Murphy's Rules paradox.

[Kalzazz]

I cant imagine using a scutum and a sling at the same time, that sounds tricky. And a pistol is one quickdraw roll (or one ready manuever if lack quickdraw) roll away from being ready to fire, unlike a sling

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

I cant imagine using a scutum and a sling at the same time, that sounds tricky. And a pistol is one quickdraw roll (or one ready manuever if lack quickdraw) roll away from being ready to fire, unlike a sling

Slings can be readied with Fast-Draw. As can sling glandes.

Using slings and large shields simultaneously is tricky and would probably require placing the shield on the ground while you reloaded, but it apparently happened, and the GURPS rules don't forbid it. At most, you can require some extra seconds for reloading, to put the shield down and pick it up again, but that still gives you a ROF between x4 and x6 of that of the pistol.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The pistol doesn't do less damage. It can't, considering that some of them are using lead bullets of the same weight as the sling, but simply propelling them at 200m/s to 450m/s instead of 30m/s to 90m/s.

If the damage system has the slower weapon penetrating armour better, that needs to be fixed in order not to cause the world to end through Murphy's Rules paradox.

When using projectiles of the same weight, yes, pistols will deal more damage, unless you have the worst gun/smokepowder in history. But at closer ranges, the guy lobbing a 2-3lb projectile at closer range is going to do a LOT of damage.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Slings can be readied with Fast-Draw. As can sling glandes.

Using slings and large shields simultaneously is tricky and would probably require placing the shield on the ground while you reloaded, but it apparently happened, and the GURPS rules don't forbid it. At most, you can require some extra seconds for reloading, to put the shield down and pick it up again, but that still gives you a ROF between x4 and x6 of that of the pistol.

I could see using a buckler, or even designing the bottom of a tower shield to be planted in the ground, giving you portable cover. One shot every 5 seconds is realistic for somebody with decent skill.

[Kalzazz]

Ah, I dont recall hearing of that. What books or such could I read about that in? (not GURPS books necessarily, my fantasy setting is mildly Rome-ish inspired (at least to the point of using Apicius as my primary non fiction reference book))


On GURPS - I dont see fast draw sling or fast draw sling bullet listed in Basic Set, are they actually listed as being fast drawable somewhere? Bows, crossbows, and blowguns are listed for fast draw arrow, not slings

I still think there is a definite niche for a 'can be drawn and fired in a single round' weapon though, whether its a pistol or a throwing stick or whatever