Abstract Wealth Pyramid #3-44

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

But it doesn't try to simulate that? It simulates having an income that you don't need to work for, nothing more, nothing less. Beyond that, you can apply any flavor you want.

Possibly I was thinking of the way that it costs more points to not have to work at lower Tech Levels. That looks like a trait linked to the local economy. Its also very common in GURPS publications for rich people to have Independent Income (possibly more common than whswhs's original idea of "a sergeant on half pay" or "a remittance man or woman getting into trouble overseas"). And as we saw in that other thread, many people try to use it to simulate in-game investments.

[RyanW]

The only issue I am having is that the thresholds are inconsistent. It's really hindering my effort to reduce every rule to "look up this value on the SSR table"

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by CeeDub

Also not quite. Money you don't need to work for is what makes it possible not to work. GURPS assumes that you work, in whatever capacity, to earn your CoL. T.

No. Jobs are not assumed as the default. the Job rules are completely optional and most of the time Jobs have to be found even when they are used. Many, many Gurps characters have never had a Job and paid their living expenses out of accumulated cash.

That you will pay money for some sort of Cost of Living is assumed if you aren't paying to live day by day like people staying at an inn. You have to choose a a lifestyle and the Cost of Living that goes with it even when they are in use.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by RyanW

The only issue I am having is that the thresholds are inconsistent. It's really hindering my effort to reduce every rule to "look up this value on the SSR table"

Threshold Values look like a 1 - 2 - 5 - 10 sequence except the highest and lowest which are orders of magnitude (oh, and Wealth 6 which is 1/5 the next higher category).

GURPS seems to take the attitude that income has a diminishing marginal utility. I think they are right about that from a game perspective. So I would not recommend using the size/speed/range table to price wealth levels in points.

[CeeDub]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No. Jobs are not assumed as the default. the Job rules are completely optional and most of the time Jobs have to be found even when they are used. Many, many Gurps characters have never had a Job and paid their living expenses out of accumulated cash.

That you will pay money for some sort of Cost of Living is assumed if you aren't paying to live day by day like people staying at an inn. You have to choose a a lifestyle and the Cost of Living that goes with it even when they are in use.

Of course, Cost of Living and the associated job rules make sense only if the PCs have some kind of settled lifestyle. If they wander around from inn to dungeon to inn to dungeon, none of this matters in the first place, and you certainly have no need for an additional layer of abstraction. The only thing Wealth might be good for in such a campaign is money to buy starting equipment. I'm running a classic fantasy campaign right now, and I didn't even use the Wealth advantage from Basic for starting money. If the equipment fits the character concept, it's approved and just there. Add few coins in the purse, and you're done. Everything else is manual bookkeeping. Money comes in only through loot and quest rewards, money goes out only for what they buy in shops and spend in inns and taverns. Honestly, I don't even bother eyeballing how much they'd had to spend on food and lodging during downtime between adventures.

That you don't use some rules for some games does not mean that those rules don't make certain assumptions.

[Celjabba]

I have been looking at the abstract wealth advantage recently, and may end using it in some games.
As well as Schrödinger backpack, in another pyramid.

But even without those rules, I often abstract money in game anyway.

Looking at my 5 most recent Gurps campaign:

**One was an horror/investigation games (think Call of Cthulhu).
Gurps wealth rules were fully used, cash was tracked, CoL was paid, settled lifestyle gear availability was decided by GM fiat.
Players had either freelancing jobs (writer, journalist) or Independent income.

**One was urban fantasy, with bit of time/dimension travel and monster hunter.

Personal wealth was descriptive. Some players were rich, other were poor in their civilian identity, but these were just zero point features, as they kept their civilian life separate and it was assumed that they could clear their agenda as required.
They were involved with an organisation as an employer/patron/enemy (depending on the day of the week...), and the campaign was mission-based.
Gear and cash were provided by the organisation, and Rank + GURPS Social Engineering Pulling Rank were used for the details.

**One was a long, epic high level adventure in Justinian Roman Empire and beyond, with Magic and old power awakening.

Wealth and status were very much important, but mostly as social items or in an abstract way.
Wealth rules were checked to get an idea of costs/CoL/income, at least to the nearest order of magnitude, but actual $ amount were not tracked.
"yes, you can purchase this, no you cannot purchase that", decided either by fiat or with merchant skill rolls, or roleplay.
Abstract wealth would probably have been perfect here.

The merchant player investment and dealing were likewise abstracted.
Starting gear for each character was not purchased, they just had everything their character should have.

**Another space based campaign :

The player were co-owners of a small 5 person corporation running a garbage collector ship and worked together toward buying a deep-space trading ship.

The big expense and windfalls were handled in an abstract way :
You are at x% of having the necessary fund for the new ship.
(including selling back your current ship)
Getting paid for this contract would get you 10% closer.
Buying this set of automated drones would set you back 5%.

Small CoL expanses were not relevant to plot and ignored.
A couple players had higher status/wealth and enjoyed buying the occasional luxuries (or problem when losing at high-stake poker), but the primary "high-value" item was the current ship and operation/fuel expenses, and those were shared by all, and not paid in cp : the game started with the players co-owner of the corporation owning the ship.

**Latest One was DF/DFRPG, and used the rule for those (100% cash based, wealth after game start being just a modifier on merchant transaction)

[Emerikol]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I would never consider using this system. I find it, frankly, just silly that dice rolls would change the amount a character has in their wallet or bank account at any given moment. No setting I would ever devise or wish to play in would be so nebulous and indeterminate. Would you roll for how many bullets are in your gun? Or whether you have your sword at any given time?

For the kind of games I run I wouldn't either for similar reasons. The acquisition of wealth is at least a primary goal in the campaign. I can though see where if you were running an FBI team stalking a serial killer where getting wealth is not really on the agenda that a system like this could work. I agree though that mundane things like lunch are just automatic in an abstract wealth scenario.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I would never consider using this system. I find it, frankly, just silly that dice rolls would change the amount a character has in their wallet or bank account at any given moment. No setting I would ever devise or wish to play in would be so nebulous and indeterminate. Would you roll for how many bullets are in your gun? Or whether you have your sword at any given time?

Note that economies where you have physical money with you are not automatic in GURPS.

Wealth was actually abstract in many tribal societies, where it represented social capital, prestige and a complex web of who owes whom. Also, in modern society, multiple ways exist to secure financing for leasing or buying a car or some other major purchase that have nothing to do with the content of a wallet or even bank account.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Also, in modern society, multiple ways exist to secure financing for leasing or buying a car or some other major purchase that have nothing to do with the content of a wallet or even bank account.

They're also not providing answers at random, and if you get declined the answer won't flip back and forth if you keep asking the same question. Nor is there a set cooldown period where you can get a different answer if only you come back tomorrow.

Abstract Wealth rules are a lot like the RAW GURPS Wealth rules. They're fine if you want to indicate a general sense of how wealthy and connected a character is in a game that doesn't really care about money, as long as you're careful not to look at them too hard or expect them to simulate anything with mechanics that model the real world.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Would you roll for how many bullets are in your gun?

I'll note there are some systems that actually do this, in a roundabout fashion - you don't really keep track of ammunition (except perhaps for how may extra magazines/powercells/whatever you have on you), but certain "failure" results on your attack roll means your weapon is out of ammunition and needs to be reloaded. In theory you could get dozens of attacks out of a revolver without needing to reload, or have to reload a drum-fed tommy gun after a single attack, but then that does fit a lot of cinematic settings.

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

They're also not providing answers at random, and if you get declined the answer won't flip back and forth if you keep asking the same question. Nor is there a set cooldown period where you can get a different answer if only you come back tomorrow.

The GM probably shouldn't let you keep asking the same person (or organization, depending on how things are setup) for whatever you're searching for, at least not without enough time passing that something might have changed. If you get rejected for a car loan at one place, you may still be able to secure one somewhere else. The randomization aspect of GURPS rules overstates things, but sometimes loan decisions and the like are made at the discretion of whoever you're speaking with, and the roll might help indicate if you happened to meet with them during a time when they were more inclined one way or the other (and perhaps who you met with - a good roll might mean you're meeting with the lady who just celebrated the birth of a new grandchild, while a bad one might mean you're meeting with the guy who just learned his dog had to be put down).

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Abstract Wealth rules are a lot like the RAW GURPS Wealth rules. They're fine if you want to indicate a general sense of how wealthy and connected a character is in a game that doesn't really care about money, as long as you're careful not to look at them too hard or expect them to simulate anything with mechanics that model the real world.

Yeah, I think I can agree with that. It's another "works fine from a distance" system.