Modular abilities with discounts

[Donny Brook]

What are folks' views on putting Alternative, Costs CP, or One Time Only on powers created using Modular abilities?

[Proteus]

I've wondered whether "One Time Only" might be the way to handle Vancian magic through Modular Abilities, where once cast the spell vanishes forever (not just for 24 hours, etc.) until you "refill the slot."

[Anaraxes]

Alternative makes no sense to me without at least some other ability in the AA group. I don't see a reason off the top of my head to disallow an AA set as an ability in an MA slot. That is, that ability will cost at least 125% of the most expensive of the set (if there are just two). The cost of the AA set is the number of points you need in the pool, not just the cost of most expensive ability. It costs more than just having each member of the AA set as an independent pool ability.

I also don't see a reason not to allow Costs CP, assuming you allow Costs CP at all. Every time you happen to use that ability (which implies that it was slotted), it costs you CP. Same as Costs FP, just a different currency.

One Time Only would be a potentially bad deal. At least in my mind, MA slots follow the same rules as AAs when it comes to cooldowns, Limited Use, Neutralize, etc -- disable an ability of the group for some reason, and the slot containing that ability is disabled until it recovers. Only then can you swap out the disabled ability for a new one. So, if you throw One Time Only on some ability, and actually use it, you've permanently burned out that slot. Since the pool cost is always a multiple of the OTO ability, it will always cost more than taking that ability separately if that's all you wanted. The upside of the MA pool is that you get to use the pool for other things in the meantime. But then, that pool flexibility is exactly what you pay for normally, as if you never designed an OTO to fit into the slot, so it's not saving you any points to also add an OTO to the list of possibly slotted abilities. Actually use it, and you'll have to buy the whole slot all over again.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Actually use it, and you'll have to buy the whole slot all over again.

For me, I would charge the amount spent, not the cost of the whole slot. For instance, if the OTA costs 5 points of a 7pt MA, then I'd require 5 points to get it back and until then you only have 2pts.

But as said, AAs and Costs CP I would just treat as if they weren't in the slot. If I have an ability that would make sense to use Abilities at Default off of, using MA for AAs is effectively the same thing (and Supers already offers a better way to do this with Wildcard powers).

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

So, if you throw One Time Only on some ability, and actually use it, you've permanently burned out that slot.

But that seems to ignore the difference between the slot and the ability. If the ability can only be used once, that does indeed mean that, after use, the slot is dead weight... until you reshuffle the modular ability into something different. You'd need to apply One-Time Only to the slot's cost to make a modular ability that can only be configured and used once.

[ericthered]

Costs CP is fine, if I allow Costs CP at all (and I usually don't). One use only is probably fine as well, though its either going to burn unused points or its going to seriously mess up the modular ability.

I absolutely support using Alternate Abilities with Modular Abilities, but there are two cases worth distinguishing. The first when when the ability is an alternate to the Modular ability. This is exactly how powers: sorcery handles things. The second is when you use modular abilities to buy alternate abilities. You need to make sure you have the core ability as something other than the modular ability, and then buy the alternate ability with the modular ability.

I'm ok with case 2, but its extremely powerful, and generally means that you can access most abilities in a power for twice the cost of the most powerful ability. I don't find that broken, but I could seem others feeling that way.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Proteus

But that seems to ignore the difference between the slot and the ability. If the ability can only be used once, that does indeed mean that, after use, the slot is

Hence the analogy with all the other Limitations that impose some sort of cooldown or loss of ability. Not having abilities with those Limitations affect use of the slot rather than just the ability creates a huge wedge of cheese if you can merely reshuffle abilities to obviate the Limitation.

(Example: Slap -80% worth of Limited Use 1/day, Requires Reload, Recharge type Limitations on some ability to get it for 20% price. Rotate in that ability, use it. You can't use that ability for a day, so you just rotate in another similar ability -- or better yet, a second copy of exactly the same ability. You can thus use that ability as often as you want, despite having gotten the cost break for Limited Use. The Limitation isn't limiting the character.

So, as with AAs, anything that limits one ability in this kind of "use group" has to shut down the entire group for the duration limit to have any meaning. OTO is just the most extreme form of cooldown -- "Limited Use 1/ever".)

[Donny Brook]

Interesting analyses. Thank you all.
Does anything change if we are dealing specifically with Cosmic pool of modular points?

[Anders]

I do not allow limitations to bring the cost of Modular Abilities below 2+2. And I'm wary of Preparation Time - that seems to me like it should reduce the cost per point as per Powers.

[naloth]

I don't see a problem with Costs Fatigue* or Limited use on the slot or pool. Both are reasonable restrictions on switching out abilities (the first making it require effort and the latter limiting how often you can do it) for other abilities. I did a classic 1/day mage by using the latter limitation.

I also don't have a problem with combine Alternate Abilities either with the pool or inside the pool.

*Costs Fatigue isn't really valid on an ability that will be used outside of "emergency" situations. The value also depends on if you're judiciously using fatigue costs for combat and other activity. Both of those things have more to do with the campaign style and GM than the limitation, though.