Artillery - Page 5

sir_pudding · 08-09-2009, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icelander

And similar actions using different skills is not at all uncommon. Compare drawing a bead and pulling a trigger. That's Guns (Rifle) with an M-16, Guns Sport (Rifle) with an airsoft replica of it, Liquid Projector for a squirt gun and Beam Weapons (Rifle) when using MILES gear.

Guns Sport (Rifle) defaults to Guns at -3.

I seriously doubt that MILES uses Beam Weapons; what would be the point of training soldiers with a skill they won't ever use? MILES is supposed to simulate normal weapons operation.

It seems extremely odd to me that the exact same action (which loading and firing a piece is) would be two different skills simply because the method of fire control is different. It would be like if GURPS had a Diving (Autmobile) skill and a Pizza Delivery (Automobile) skill that did not default to each other because when you are delivering a pizza someone has phoned in an order to the store, whereas when you aren't delivering a pizza there was no phone in order. It makes no sense.

Agramer · 08-09-2009, 01:25 PM

Well as was said before...line must be drawn somewhere,and this is GENERIC system and not simulation of reality.As tech progresses many "things" get into shade area where they could be also something else.

Since our subject was Mortar 60 mm so far...I would use just Artillery (mortar) for both kinds of aiming.

In case of Battleship main guns ,I would use Guns(Battleship gun) for direct fire and Artillery(Battleship gun) for indirect fire.
Battleship guy would have unfamiliarity penalty on other types(untill he becomes familiar with them).

Any system must have breakpoints which aint realistic.
Encumbrance as example: 1 lbs more and you move 20% slower...1 lbs less and youre 20% faster....etc

Also application of a lot of stuff is simplified to avoid slowing down game with dozens of rolls....

Actually,take any Category/rule in GURPS and youll see that it doesn't simulate reality correctly.

Also ,there are mistakes,misjudgements,mistypes.....etc (it was done by humans).

So if you are very familiar with some subject...use your experience to describe it in more detail than others can...thatd be your forte...and hence easier to GM...

EDIT: and ROFLOL ,sometimes people will not believe you that is so,due their "movie perception" of things.
"Hand Grenade had to knock back me few yards"
"Modern 7,62 mm military rifle CANT shoot through(penetrate) 40cm tick living tree from 20 yards"
"Brick wall,ordinary family house,will protect me from Heavy machine gun fire" (will to extent)
"If I turn table ,it will stop bullets"
"M-16 5,56 mm rifle shoot will cause knock back"
"all mines only explode after you remove your leg from them"
.......

~~Ragitsu~~ · 08-09-2009, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agramer

this is GENERIC system and not simulation of reality.

I keep reading this, but really, if you can't count on one of the more prominent granular systems to not be "realistic" and/or a reality simulator, what can you count on?

vicky_molokh · 08-09-2009, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

I keep reading this, but really, if you can't count on one of the more prominent granular systems to not be "realistic" and/or a reality simulator, what can you count on?

Problem is it is granular.

PPoS · 08-09-2009, 04:27 PM

Dunno if this has already been said but, in GURPS WWII there are rules for FDC's. The gunners gets a bonus for having a FDC (can't remember if there is any particular roll involved); this was in MVDS IIRC but can surely be tweaked to other roles.

copeab · 08-09-2009, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PPoS

Dunno if this has already been said but, in GURPS WWII there are rules for FDC's. The gunners gets a bonus for having a FDC (can't remember if there is any particular roll involved); this was in MVDS IIRC but can surely be tweaked to other roles.

There was no roll required from the FDC; it provided a fixed bonus based on the size of the computer used.

copeab · 08-09-2009, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agramer

Crew as I said above is 3 man.You can make Crew(mortar) roll to see how fast can they deploy or fire it.

My point still remains -- the more rolls you require for the task to succeed, the more likely the task will fail.

~~Ragitsu~~ · 08-09-2009, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copeab

My point still remains -- the more rolls you require for the task to succeed, the more likely the task will fail.

Good point.

SuedodeuS · 08-09-2009, 09:42 PM

Artillery is there for simplicity, I suspect. Here's a more complicated system to use, off the top of my head.

Forward Observer: FO calls it in, making Forward Observer (Artillery) roll. On a success, go on to the next step (Margin of Success gives bonus to FDC). On a failure, he gives the wrong coordinates, making a hit all but impossible (basically, later rolls would have to screw up as well, but in the opposite direction). On a critical failure, he accidentally gives his own position (or that of nearby friendlies)!

Fire Direction Center: FDC makes Forward Observer (FDC?) roll to determine how to hit and sends this information to the fire team. On a success, go on to the next step (Margin of Success gives bonus to Plotter). A failure has a similar effect as with the FO, and a critical failure leads to friendly fire (frequently targeted at the FO).
Mathematics (Applied) and similar can be used to take extra time and grant a bonus to the Forward Observer roll. I don't know what the time required should be, or how extensive the bonuses should be, but this gives a) a reason for the FDC to have skills other than Forward Observer, and b) a chance for those who aren't well-trained in Artillery, but who have a good grasp of the theory, to pull it off.

Plotter: The plotter makes an Artillery roll to set the aiming stake (or whatever) in order to show the gunner where to fire. Success and failure are as per FDC, but note the bonus to the Gunner's roll is limited - it can remove the penalty for firing blind (-10), and can grant a bonus up to the weapon's Acc (it should go without saying, but scopes and the like do not add to this; match-grade ammunition and accurized barrels, however, do).

Gunner: The gunner makes a Gunner roll to actually fire the weapon (a gunner unused to indirect fire would suffer familiarity penalties). A success hits the target, a failure misses.

Special Considerations
Deviation: Each time there is a failure (FO, FDC, Plotter, Gunner), the location the shell actually lands changes. For best results, calculate each deviation seperately - sometimes they'll actually cancel each other out! Use similar rules as for Scattering Fire (or whatever the entry is) from Basic Set.

Preventing Disaster: There are a few "failsafes" involved in the process. These are the checks by the FDC and, optionally, the leader. The leader's roll (probably Artillery) is made upon recieving instruction from the FDC, but is also applied to the later roll by the Plotter. Each failsafe can catch errors made by any step. Failsafes can only* prevent friendly-fire incidents - that is, they notice if those before them made a Criticial Failure. If such an error is noted, the source** of the error gets a reroll (and everyone after the source has to reroll as well).

Later corrections: Once the shell hits, the FO can call in corrections. For simplicity (and because such orders would be difficult to screw up), have FO directly modify the Gunner roll. The bonus is capped just like for the Plotter - it can negate the -10 for firing blind, and give a bonus up to the weapon's Acc. If the FO has a Critical Failure (friendly fire), then have the FDC and Leader make their rolls to notice this.

Other: Other effects, like Time of Flight, should follow the same rules as the box in High Tech.

*Optionally, the FDC (only) can note more mundane errors by the FO in some circumstances. This is generally only if the discrepancy by the FO leads to a nonsensical target - such as hitting the open seas when you're trying to hit a port, or attacking a valley when the target is a base overlooking a cliff. Also, the Leader probably only has a general idea of troop deployment, while the FDC will know most of what's going on. So, a Leader might not be able to catch a friendly-fire incident if it's at an unmapped group (like the FO himself), but the FDC can.

**If the source is some distance up the chain from the person who catches it, you could have it give the last person a reroll - success means it moves back up the line. So, in the extreme case, let's say FO crit-fails his check, but the failure isn't noticed until the Plotter. He'd inform the Leader that the co-ordinates are at friendlies. Leader double-checks things (makes his roll) and notices as well, reporting this to FDC. FDC double-checks (makes roll), confirms the problem and informs the FO. The FO sends out a new fire request (new roll), and things start over.

Ulzgoroth · 08-09-2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Also how does Artillery skill work without an FO (say for TL1-5 pieces)?

Very poorly, if at all. Doesn't the box give a -10 for that? That seems about accurate. Do you have examples of completely unobserved, low-tech fire being effective?

But what's the connection between TL1-5 and no FO? Having electrical communications makes the FO much more convenient, but it's hardly impossible with more primitive means of communication.

And for any heavy weapon, there's someone who decides how to aim it, and often a crew who do the actual work. I'd say the main roll belongs to the guy making the decision, be he a siege engineer, gun crew captain, or...whoever it is in the HT scenario. Plotter? The gun crew's influence on the shot is minor unless they screw up.

08-09-2009, 01:25 PM	#42
Agramer Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Zagreb,Croatia	Re: Artillery Well as was said before...line must be drawn somewhere,and this is GENERIC system and not simulation of reality.As tech progresses many "things" get into shade area where they could be also something else. Since our subject was Mortar 60 mm so far...I would use just Artillery (mortar) for both kinds of aiming. In case of Battleship main guns ,I would use Guns(Battleship gun) for direct fire and Artillery(Battleship gun) for indirect fire. Battleship guy would have unfamiliarity penalty on other types(untill he becomes familiar with them). Any system must have breakpoints which aint realistic. Encumbrance as example: 1 lbs more and you move 20% slower...1 lbs less and youre 20% faster....etc Also application of a lot of stuff is simplified to avoid slowing down game with dozens of rolls.... Actually,take any Category/rule in GURPS and youll see that it doesn't simulate reality correctly. Also ,there are mistakes,misjudgements,mistypes.....etc (it was done by humans). So if you are very familiar with some subject...use your experience to describe it in more detail than others can...thatd be your forte...and hence easier to GM... EDIT: and ROFLOL ,sometimes people will not believe you that is so,due their "movie perception" of things. "Hand Grenade had to knock back me few yards" "Modern 7,62 mm military rifle CANT shoot through(penetrate) 40cm tick living tree from 20 yards" "Brick wall,ordinary family house,will protect me from Heavy machine gun fire" (will to extent) "If I turn table ,it will stop bullets" "M-16 5,56 mm rifle shoot will cause knock back" "all mines only explode after you remove your leg from them" ....... Last edited by Agramer; 08-09-2009 at 01:32 PM.

08-09-2009, 04:27 PM	#45
PPoS Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Sweden (but mostly this forum)	Re: Artillery Dunno if this has already been said but, in GURPS WWII there are rules for FDC's. The gunners gets a bonus for having a FDC (can't remember if there is any particular roll involved); this was in MVDS IIRC but can surely be tweaked to other roles.

08-09-2009, 09:42 PM	#49
SuedodeuS Join Date: Sep 2008	Re: Artillery Artillery is there for simplicity, I suspect. Here's a more complicated system to use, off the top of my head. Forward Observer: FO calls it in, making Forward Observer (Artillery) roll. On a success, go on to the next step (Margin of Success gives bonus to FDC). On a failure, he gives the wrong coordinates, making a hit all but impossible (basically, later rolls would have to screw up as well, but in the opposite direction). On a critical failure, he accidentally gives his own position (or that of nearby friendlies)! Fire Direction Center: FDC makes Forward Observer (FDC?) roll to determine how to hit and sends this information to the fire team. On a success, go on to the next step (Margin of Success gives bonus to Plotter). A failure has a similar effect as with the FO, and a critical failure leads to friendly fire (frequently targeted at the FO). Mathematics (Applied) and similar can be used to take extra time and grant a bonus to the Forward Observer roll. I don't know what the time required should be, or how extensive the bonuses should be, but this gives a) a reason for the FDC to have skills other than Forward Observer, and b) a chance for those who aren't well-trained in Artillery, but who have a good grasp of the theory, to pull it off. Plotter: The plotter makes an Artillery roll to set the aiming stake (or whatever) in order to show the gunner where to fire. Success and failure are as per FDC, but note the bonus to the Gunner's roll is limited - it can remove the penalty for firing blind (-10), and can grant a bonus up to the weapon's Acc (it should go without saying, but scopes and the like do not add to this; match-grade ammunition and accurized barrels, however, do). Gunner: The gunner makes a Gunner roll to actually fire the weapon (a gunner unused to indirect fire would suffer familiarity penalties). A success hits the target, a failure misses. Special Considerations Deviation: Each time there is a failure (FO, FDC, Plotter, Gunner), the location the shell actually lands changes. For best results, calculate each deviation seperately - sometimes they'll actually cancel each other out! Use similar rules as for Scattering Fire (or whatever the entry is) from Basic Set. Preventing Disaster: There are a few "failsafes" involved in the process. These are the checks by the FDC and, optionally, the leader. The leader's roll (probably Artillery) is made upon recieving instruction from the FDC, but is also applied to the later roll by the Plotter. Each failsafe can catch errors made by any step. Failsafes can only* prevent friendly-fire incidents - that is, they notice if those before them made a Criticial Failure. If such an error is noted, the source** of the error gets a reroll (and everyone after the source has to reroll as well). Later corrections: Once the shell hits, the FO can call in corrections. For simplicity (and because such orders would be difficult to screw up), have FO directly modify the Gunner roll. The bonus is capped just like for the Plotter - it can negate the -10 for firing blind, and give a bonus up to the weapon's Acc. If the FO has a Critical Failure (friendly fire), then have the FDC and Leader make their rolls to notice this. Other: Other effects, like Time of Flight, should follow the same rules as the box in High Tech. Optionally, the FDC (only) can note more mundane errors by the FO in some circumstances. This is generally only if the discrepancy by the FO leads to a nonsensical target - such as hitting the open seas when you're trying to hit a port, or attacking a valley when the target is a base overlooking a cliff. Also, the Leader probably only has a general idea of troop deployment, while the FDC will know most of what's going on. So, a Leader might not be able to catch a friendly-fire incident if it's at an unmapped group (like the FO himself), but the FDC can. If the source is some distance up the chain from the person who catches it, you could have it give the last person a reroll - success means it moves back up the line. So, in the extreme case, let's say FO crit-fails his check, but the failure isn't noticed until the Plotter. He'd inform the Leader that the co-ordinates are at friendlies. Leader double-checks things (makes his roll) and notices as well, reporting this to FDC. FDC double-checks (makes roll), confirms the problem and informs the FO. The FO sends out a new fire request (new roll), and things start over. __________________ Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.* Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad. Last edited by SuedodeuS; 08-10-2009 at 07:52 PM.