[PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

[VIVIT]

I've never used independent Will or Per before, but now I want to try it, and I want to try it with both—possibly with independent Cha as well for the benefit of all the clueless geniuses and lovable street-smart-book-dumb rogues out there—each at 10 points per level. This take a LOT of weight off of IQ's shoulders, especially since I'm considering:

• Moving any IQ roll where the point is decisive execution rather than clever planning to Will instead (e.g. recovery from mental stun)
• Making heavy use of Using Skills With Different Attributes
• Encouraging the purchase of Talents

So I'm considering marking IQ down to compensate. But IQ is already overpriced underpriced to begin with. Just how much "weight" would you need to take off IQ before warranting a reduction of its value to 10? Heavy "floating" of skills between attributes will mean that I can't just count skills and call it a day (and also make talents more worthwhile, because talents don't float).

Lastly, what could I do to DX to make it so that it's not the odd one out at 20 points per level? I'm considering disjointing High Manual Dexterity from DX, calling it "Steady Hands", and then treat most DX rolls for things that would normally use HMD as IQ rolls instead—picking locks, soldering circuits, performing delicate surgery, etc. Or even Per rolls, in the case of things like Artist.

Thoughts?

[Varyon]

First and foremost, do you have GURPS Power Ups 9: Alternate Attributes? I don't have it myself, as restructuring the Attribute layout doesn't have a strong appeal for me, but from what I understand, it was written to answer exactly these sorts of questions.

[ericthered]

As a note: when I set Will and Per independent from IQ, as I do in about 75% of my games. I leave IQ at 20, and people still take it at high levels. This might be because of my low-combat play style, but its a data point about IQ not being over-costed.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by VIVIT

I've never used independent Will or Per before, but now I want to try it, and I want to try it with both ...

It's always been possible, simply by buying Will and/or Per up or down individually. Buying up Per in particular is common for animals or animal-adjacent templates are involved.

So I'm considering marking IQ down to compensate. But IQ is already overpriced to begin with.

Did you mean underpriced?

Just how much "weight" would you need to take off IQ before warranting a reduction of its value to 10?

A substantial number of people (e.g. PK) think IQ is worth [20] per level on its own without PER or WILL included. When I have considered unpacking IQ, I lean toward separating out Social skills (which I guess you're addressing with 'CHA'), memory-oriented tasks, and logic-oriented tasks.

Lastly, what could I do to DX to make it so that it's not the odd one out at 20 points per level? I'm considering disjointing High Manual Dexterity from DX, calling it "Steady Hands"...

When I thought about parceling DX, in addition to Manual DX, I thought that there are tasks related to limb-eye coordination (e.g. melee weapons) and tasks related to full-body agility (e.g. acrobatics).

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by ericthered

As a note: when I set Will and Per independent from IQ, as I do in about 75% of my games. I leave IQ at 20, and people still take it at high levels. This might be because of my low-combat play style, but its a data point about IQ not being over-costed.

"Low combat" has nothing to do with it, I split out Will and Per and kept IQ at 20/level and PCs still crank it when they're building skill heavy characters. Once you have more than 10 skills that rely on IQ it's vastly cheaper to crank IQ than 10 individual skills.

Heck, it's still 'worth it' with 6 IQ dependent skills, but I will admit that with less than 10 skills some Players start choosing skills over IQ.

[SID]

Originally Posted by VIVIT

I've never used independent Will or Per before, but now… Thoughts?

@Vivit

IIRC WILL alone is worth 5 CP, and PER alone is worth another 5 CP.
So, IQ should be worth 10 CP.

On the other hand, .25 Basic speed alone is worth 5 CP and every full point of basic speed gives you +1 move, so DEX should be 15.

IMO that's good enough.

However, there are way fewer PER/WILL based skills to justify such a change. Since there’s many IQ based skills, most players will feel inclined to pay for IQ regardless of its cost.

DX at 15 CP is reasonable because a lot of physical skills are ruled by DX, and it doesn’t have “subsets” like IQ does with PER/WILL.

Some may like separating the cost of attributes. I separate such costs to help players avoid “wasting” their disadvantages budget in stuff like reduced PER/WILL or Basic Speed. However, I’d question whether separating the attributes makes it better when you choke the budget (e.g. at 250 CP or less) charging 20 CP for IQ alone (w/o including WILL and PER).

I’d consider that in games like D&D, you can float certain skills to other attributes, so it’s easier to have “dump attributes” without suffering ill consequences for things like IQ 1. AFAIK GURPS is different in this respect, but if you wanna go for it, this is where talents could play a good part. To make this successful I’d recommend you designing a bundle of racial or jobs advantages and disadvantages, with talents as an option to bypass the racial/job limitations.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by ericthered

However, I’d question whether separating the attributes makes it better when you choke the budget (e.g. at 250 CP or less) charging 20 CP for IQ alone (w/o including WILL and PER).

I "choke the budget" with split out Per and Will all the time and my Players only cry a little. (I mean there was gnashing of teeth wailing at first, but after a few campaigns they've stopped complaining and I think they feel it's actually almost balanced. I wonder if I can split out Basic Speed next and leave DX and HT at the same prices...)

[Balor Patch]

Originally Posted by VIVIT

I'm considering disjointing High Manual Dexterity from DX, calling it "Steady Hands",

Use Dexterity for that, with Agility covering the movement skills.

[DangerousThing]

Originally Posted by SID

I’d consider that in games like D&D, you can float certain skills to other attributes, so it’s easier to have “dump attributes” without suffering ill consequences for things like IQ 1. AFAIK GURPS is different in this respect, but if you wanna go for it, this is where talents could play a good part. To make this successful I’d recommend you designing a bundle of racial or jobs advantages and disadvantages, with talents as an option to bypass the racial/job limitations.

GURPS also officially has the "float" concept. For example, to decide which zap gun is better, a int-based Beam Weapons roll might be called for.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by SID

@Vivit

IIRC WILL alone is worth 5 CP, and PER alone is worth another 5 CP.
So, IQ should be worth 10 CP.

IQ is broken down as
*Will: [5] per +1
*Per: [5] per +1
*Academic skills [3] per +1
*Social skills [2] per +1
*Technical skills [2] per +1
*Brainier “adventure” skills [3] per +1

The problem is per Talents those values don't make sense:

*One (1 skill): 2 points/level, max 3 [1] — Contrast with Racial Skills
*Small (6 or fewer related skills): 5 points/level.
*Medium (7 to 12 related skills): 10 points/level.
*Large (13 or more related skills): 15 points/level.
*Smooth (minimum 5 points): 1 point/level per skill affected.

So there are places where things don't quite line up.