Martial Arts: Polearm/Quarterstaff/Weapon Adaptation

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Toptomcat

That might tell us that making a Combination Weapon out of a staff and a spearhead while still wielding the blasted thing with Staff rather than Spear would be unreasonable- but it doesn't help us answer the broader point of whether the parry bonus for staffs is inherent in the statline of the weapon or the description of the skill, and what effect Form Mastery is supposed to have. The rules text is sufficiently ambiguous that it's difficult to discern the intent.

"This skill makes good use of the staff’s extensive parrying surface when defending, giving +2 to your Parry score."
A (reasonable) combination weapon built with a staff has a no less extensive parrying surface than a staff.

Also, I was being slightly sarcastic with my reference to the combination weapons because I wanted to point out that sharp cutoff points tend to produce results that are, at best, weird.

Anyway, when I PMed Kromm back in the day about various Staff-related things, he said that answers should be evident from the rules. The rules say the skill gives a parry bonus, that Weapon Adaptation lets one enjoy the benefits of a specific skill, and Kromm said it's possible to wield a staff with a bill hook with the Staff skill.

[Gollum]

This debate is really interesting. I don't know Martial Arts rules enough to discuss about each precise point; all what I can say is what I have already said above. But the counter-arguments are very good too: a pole arm is unbalanced, and it should make a difference ...

Now, what about reality? Let's see kobudo ...

http://www.oshukai.fr/kobudo-okinawa...obudo-dokinawa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_kobud%C5%8D

In kobudo, we learn the bo (quarter staff). It is well simulated in GURPS rules with its +2 to parry, because of his length (parrying surface), but also because of its incredible parry techniques: you can parry gedan (down) while attacking jodan (up) at the same time. The bo can also be used like a spear (several thrusting attack techniques). It is very effective, especially to the foot, the knee or the throat. And the Thrust line of the weapon does the job very well ...

We also learn the nunti bo (it is like a spear with a hook). It is almost as balanced as a bo and many techniques are similar with bo techniques. Thanks to the Weapon Adaptation Perk, it can be used with the Staff skill, or with the Hook skill (every one does agree on that, if I understood things well). Here again, GURPS do the job very well ...

Now, we also learn the eku (paddle). It is a quite heavy weapon, very close from a pole arm. My master says that if it is well sharpened and if you hit your foe strongly enough, you can behead him. Because of its weight, handling such a weapon requires a lot of training. But a lot of techniques are still very close from the bo, especially the parry techniques.

So, would the Weapon Adaptation Perk be sufficient to get the +2 to parry?

Sadly, I'm not experienced enough to answer this question. I didn't learn the eku yet. Neither the nunti bo. All what I know (a bit - only 2 years of training) is the bo (plus the sai and the tonfa, but they are very different) ... Now, when I watch my master or the black belts training with the eku, I see techniques that I also do with the bo.

I don't know if that can help to answer the question, but it is the only input I can do ...

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Gollum

We also learn the nunti bo (it is like a spear with a hook). It is almost as balanced as a bo and many techniques are similar with bo techniques. Thanks to the Weapon Adaptation Perk, it can be used with the Staff skill, or with the Hook skill (every one does agree on that, if I understood things well). Here again, GURPS do the job very well ...

There is no Hook skill. There's a Hook technique, which is likely relevant, but doesn't replace an underlying skill to use the weapon the hook is a part of.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

There is no Hook skill. There's a Hook technique, which is likely relevant, but doesn't replace an underlying skill to use the weapon the hook is a part of.

OK. Thanks for the correction.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Toptomcat

but it doesn't help us answer the broader point of whether the parry bonus for staffs is inherent in the statline of the weapon or the description of the skill

Look at the statlines for the Two-Handed Sword skill. The same quarterstaff item is there with -1 to Thrust damage and no +2 to Parry.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

Look at the statlines for the Two-Handed Sword skill. The same quarterstaff item is there with -1 to Thrust damage and no +2 to Parry.

Which sounds to mean that it belongs to the skill, not to the weapon.

[Racer]

What happens if you have a variable polearm ? Would you have to separate skills to wield the weapon effectively ?

Playing an 2nd Edition Oriental AD&D Campaign around 20 years ago , another player had a all metal staff weapon that was a sort of 'Swiss Army Polearm' , in that he could decide what configuration he wanted . Mainly Eastern weapons like Monk's Spade , Muck Rake , Naginata etc - but a few Western weapon's he'd observed from travelers at Ports & trade centres like Billhook , Pike , Glaive & Halberd - as well as a humanoid weapon based on the Vulcan Lirpas from Star Trek !
While his Warrior wasn't allowed to specialise in this item - apart from in Monk's Spade mode , which he had already - but with a +2 bonus specialising wasn't really needed . The roleplaying & combat tactic opportunities this polearm presented was fantastic .

How would an item like this work in GURPS ?

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Racer

What happens if you have a variable polearm ? Would you have to separate skills to wield the weapon effectively ?

Playing an 2nd Edition Oriental AD&D Campaign around 20 years ago , another player had a all metal staff weapon that was a sort of 'Swiss Army Polearm' , in that he could decide what configuration he wanted . Mainly Eastern weapons like Monk's Spade , Muck Rake

The Rod of Lordly Might is archtypical DnD magical item like that

and yes you would need speret skills, though most of them would fall under Polearm skill.

However Weapon Bond and Weapon Master(single weapon) can be the variable weapon and will apply to what ever skill you need to use that weapon.

This is the same case as the Bastard sword and Katana that needs both Two-weapon sword and Broadsword skills if you want to use them both ways.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Which sounds to mean that it belongs to the skill, not to the weapon.

I would probably just say that polearms with a U parry become polearms with +2U parries when wielded with Staff.

For my own houserules I reduced a lot of skill clutter by just merging Spear and Staff into a single skill and allowing some polearms to be used with Sword or Hafted as appropriate at no penalty, Staff Grip being found on all weapons with sufficiently long handles as an option that improves the Parry score while reducing Reach and Damage.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by simply Nathan

I would probably just say that polearms with a U parry become polearms with +2U parries when wielded with Staff.

Except that would be a house rule

Defense Bonus for Staff questions (4e)

Originally Posted by Kromm

Any balanced weapon used with Staff skill gets +2 Parry. However, there is no such thing as "+2U" Parry, which is why the naginata is "0U." Note that contrary to gaming myth, a tetsubo isn't really an iron staff . . . it's closer to a honking huge maul. It just happens to be baseball bat-shaped instead of hammer-shaped. It would definitely use Two-Handed Axe/Mace skill, not Staff.