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Old 03-05-2013, 04:11 PM   #31
apoc527
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Seattle, WA
Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust View Post
What I mean is that a lawyer would need different sources than those of his
home country. For example, in an extradition case he needs to understand
the legal system of the country that is asked to extradite the person, the
legal system of the country that asks for the extradition, and the treaties
concerning extradition between the two countries. Moreover, he has to deal
with the problem that international treaties are often difficult to enforce.
Which is why "international law" is something of a misnomer. It's not so much "law" as it is "diplomacy." There are sort of "world courts" but nothing that a normal lawyer would ever work in. The reality is that nobody really practices "international law" in the same sense that they practice family law. Being an international lawyer is often more about policy and diplomacy rather than being before a judge in a lawsuit. It's certainly a valid area for lawyers to work in, but it's not the same. Most law students are somewhat disappointed to learn that "international law" isn't a real field in the sense that they think it is when they come to law school.

Many diplomats are lawyers, after all, and many treaties (most, probably) are negotiated, drafted, and fought over by lawyers, but in such a case, being a lawyer is the background for doing "international law" rather than an area of law being practiced. It's a weird way of thinking about it, but I think that's accurate. What I'm trying to say is that "doing international law" is a very different thing than "knowing international law." The latter is really just a specialized knowledge skill, perhaps "Expert Skill (International Treaties)" while the former requires a whole host of skills and probably more than a few Law specialties, none of which I'd actually label "interional law" (upon reflection).

Even if I'm not making much sense right now, trust me, "it's different." :-)
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:13 PM   #32
apoc527
 
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
No, that's still incorporated to some degree in skill level. The problem is that realistic skills generally aren't monolithic things that you get better or worse at, they're a bunch of related microskills/familiarities, and while a higher level of general skill will typically let you pick up a new familiarity faster, you still won't be able to do it by default unless you get fairly lucky.
Maybe the familiarities system is the way to go, I'd forgotten about that. And I didn't mean to imply that Research and Writing could substitute for the Law skill, it's just that to actually deliver a product to a client, you would need Research and Writing, plus the Law skills.

Now I know how the gentleman writing about the Physician skill felt.

Also, what I was also trying to get at by using my wife's listed practice areas as an example is that she can't reasonably have that many little sub-skills. I would broadly group her knowledge as "Administrative Law," but even that is probably overbroad for some people's tastes. I think a happy medium between "Admin Law" and "Mining Law" (which would be unplayably specific) is just "Environmental Law." That would cover most of her practice areas. Perhaps you could add in a "Regulatory Law" specialty as well.
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Last edited by apoc527; 03-05-2013 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:18 PM   #33
rust
 
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

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Originally Posted by apoc527 View Post
Even if I'm not making much sense right now, trust me, "it's different." :-)
No problem, I think we mean the same, I have just a little difficulty to ex-
press it in English. :)
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:22 PM   #34
Anthony
 
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

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Originally Posted by apoc527 View Post
Now I know how the gentleman writing about the Physician skill felt.
For practical purposes, every IQ-based /TL skill will have a large number of subfields by TL 5, and by TL 7 will have so many subfields that it's humanly impossible to be competent in all of them.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:31 PM   #35
apoc527
 
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
For practical purposes, every IQ-based /TL skill will have a large number of subfields by TL 5, and by TL 7 will have so many subfields that it's humanly impossible to be competent in all of them.
I definitely don't dispute that! My goal is to find a game-able list of practice areas that can be used for reasonably realistic lawyers in GURPS terns. The Law! Skill is great for cinematic games (and TV lawyers), but lacks something for many games.

I'd say something like the number of Electronics Operation skills is in the right ball park.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:32 PM   #36
apoc527
 
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

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Originally Posted by rust View Post
No problem, I think we mean the same, I have just a little difficulty to ex-
press it in English. :)
Most of the time you communicate better in English than many native speakers. No worries! :-)
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:34 PM   #37
rust
 
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
For practical purposes, every IQ-based /TL skill will have a large number of subfields by TL 5, and by TL 7 will have so many subfields that it's humanly impossible to be competent in all of them.
Indeed. I already suffered discussions with players about the knowledge co-
vered by the Astronomy skill and by the Linguistics skill. An attempt to come
up with a list of subskills that makes sense and is still playable failed in both
cases. Now I ask the players to define their characters' knowledge in such a
skill and use that to determine what the characters are likely to know or not.
I would do the same with the Law skill.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:41 PM   #38
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Greetings, all!

Anyone know what is the full list of fields for the Law skill? Basic mentions Constitutional, Contract, Criminal, Police, and I'm guessing that Administrative has to fit in there somewhere. ...
The Law Society of Upper Canada certifies fifteen specializations:
  • Bankruptcy and Insolvency Law
  • Citizenship and Immigration Law (Immigration/ Refugee Protection)
  • Civil Litigation
  • Construction Law
  • Corporate and Commercial Law
  • Criminal Law
  • Environmental Law
  • Estates and Trusts Law
  • Family Law
  • Health Law
  • Intellectual Property Law (Trademark/Patent/Copyright)
  • Labour Law
  • Municipal Law
  • Real Estate Law
  • Workplace Safety and Insurance Law

Their list bears only a vague resemblance to the one in GURPS... but they're the relevant professionals (at least, they are in Ontario).
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:50 PM   #39
Rocket Man
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by robkelk View Post
The Law Society of Upper Canada certifies fifteen specializations:
  • Bankruptcy and Insolvency Law
  • Citizenship and Immigration Law (Immigration/ Refugee Protection)
  • Civil Litigation
  • Construction Law
  • Corporate and Commercial Law
  • Criminal Law
  • Environmental Law
  • Estates and Trusts Law
  • Family Law
  • Health Law
  • Intellectual Property Law (Trademark/Patent/Copyright)
  • Labour Law
  • Municipal Law
  • Real Estate Law
  • Workplace Safety and Insurance Law

Their list bears only a vague resemblance to the one in GURPS... but they're the relevant professionals (at least, they are in Ontario).
Rob, do Canadian lawyers have to have specific credentials for the province they operate in? That's the way it works in the U.S. -- a lawyer who's certified to practice in Tennessee doesn't automatically have the ability to represent someone in a Colorado courtroom. There's enough differences in state law that that would be a separate specialization by itself.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:11 PM   #40
roguebfl
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Default Re: Calling all lawyers! List of specific fields for Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by apoc527 View Post
Which is why "international law" is something of a misnomer. It's not so much "law" as it is "diplomacy." There are sort of "world courts" but nothing that a normal lawyer would ever work in. The reality is that nobody really practices "international law" in the same sense that they practice family law. Being an international lawyer is often more about policy and diplomacy rather than being before a judge in a lawsuit. It's certainly a valid area for lawyers to work in, but it's not the same. Most law students are somewhat disappointed to learn that "international law" isn't a real field in the sense that they think it is when they come to law school.

Many diplomats are lawyers, after all, and many treaties (most, probably) are negotiated, drafted, and fought over by lawyers, but in such a case, being a lawyer is the background for doing "international law" rather than an area of law being practiced. It's a weird way of thinking about it, but I think that's accurate. What I'm trying to say is that "doing international law" is a very different thing than "knowing international law." The latter is really just a specialized knowledge skill, perhaps "Expert Skill (International Treaties)" while the former requires a whole host of skills and probably more than a few Law specialties, none of which I'd actually label "interional law" (upon reflection).

Even if I'm not making much sense right now, trust me, "it's different." :-)
Actually it's the oppose diplomacy is about the writing and changing of treaties.

International Law is interpretation of existing treaties. is practiced, for such things as international trade for companies and for non-citizen rights for tourists and extrication of forening nationals. So it /IS/ practiced

The real difference is who enforces the laws and how binding they are chances a lot more depending who the plantives is and who the defended is.
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