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Old 09-13-2022, 11:29 AM   #11
SID
 
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
IQ is broken down as...
That's quite interesting, is there something similar for DEX? And trying to catch up with this, is there a book that states X skill is social or “brainy”, etc.?
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The problem is per Talents those values don't make sense:
I believe that's because the talent isn't exclusively meant to aid skills of the same category (e.g. social or "brainy"), but skills that at first seem unrelated but are part of a more complex "whole" such as racial talents.
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Originally Posted by DangerousThing View Post
GURPS also officially has the "float" concept. For example, to decide which zap gun is better, a int-based Beam Weapons roll might be called for.
I meant, for example (put very roughly), that a dnd Warlock can “float” his combat prowess to CHA and CON and this might allow his other attributes to go as low as 1. I believe this is mostly because in dnd certain dynamics are centered on the jobs and have built-in exceptions. And that might be required in a GURPS game (tailored exceptions), to allow for such builds. And talents could be one approach.
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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
I "choke the budget" with split out Per and Will all the time and my Players only cry a little.
What options do they have to “compensate”? I’m just commenting on splitting alone, but you probably do something else to help things work.
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Old 09-13-2022, 12:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

The easiest solution for cost is a revealed preference model: make cost nonlinear and people will raise the attribute until it reaches a cost they're no longer willing to pay.
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Old 09-13-2022, 06:36 PM   #13
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
IQ is broken down as
*Will: [5] per +1
*Per: [5] per +1
*Academic skills [3] per +1
*Social skills [2] per +1
*Technical skills [2] per +1
*Brainier “adventure” skills [3] per +1
A problem with tracking values directly to skills is there is no residual value for generic uses of IQ. Using intermediate qualities that include relevant types of skills leaves room for non-skill uses of IQ relevant to the particular quality.
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Old 09-14-2022, 07:06 AM   #14
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

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Originally Posted by SID View Post
That's quite interesting, is there something similar for DEX? And trying to catch up with this, is there a book that states X skill is social or “brainy”, etc.?
No, in fact what maximara suggests is slightly odd, weird, and GURPS doesn't do that at all.

"IQ based skills" are just IQ based. They might be modified by different Advantages (Talents and faux-Talents like Voice, CHarisma, etc), but they aren't really categorizable that simply.

But, see the free pdf GURPS Fourth Edition Skill Categories for a way to split them into very overlappy skill categories.

Quote:
What options do they have to “compensate”? I’m just commenting on splitting alone, but you probably do something else to help things work.
I'm not sure what you mean? I split Will and Per and leave IQ at 20 points per. I did bump up my "standard" point budget by a few points, but over time I found it wasn't exactly necessary.

But then I don't tend to run "low" point budget games in 4e. My lowest started at 140 points and was meant to have the PCs be at 175 by the end of the fourth session*, at which it transitioned back to a more regular rough "1 exp for every two hours of play or 5 at 'milestones", which is kinda how I give out exp. I tend to run 200-250 point starting games.


* The starting was "weird" as the PCs were amnesiacs who started with 140 points in Attributes and remembered skills and advantages (and disadvantages!) as the first four sessions played out. So the first four sessions were "build a bear" sessions and introing them into the game world. Also I had two GURPS newbs, so they got to pick up a slowly expanding list of skills and advantages over 4 games sessions "organically" instead of wading through chargen all at once.

Last edited by mburr0003; 09-15-2022 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 09-14-2022, 08:56 AM   #15
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

If it were me, I'd price IQ at 10/level, but only because it makes conversion of templates easier.

Though I'd even more prefer to rename things and/or silo "acts as low IQ" into part of some "Animal Mind" disadvantage rather than require that animals play games with relative IQ to Per ratios.
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Old 09-19-2022, 03:46 PM   #16
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

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Originally Posted by SID View Post
That's quite interesting, is there something similar for DEX?
Yes.

*Basic Speed: [5] per +0.25
*Combat skills: [9] per +1
*Athletic skills: [3] per +1
*Transport skills: [2] per +1
*Sneaky skills: [1] per +1

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Originally Posted by SID View Post
And trying to catch up with this, is there a book that states X skill is social or “brainy”, etc.?
Only in a very general way: Power-Ups 9 - Alternate Attributes

"nonsocial, non-technical skills that could lead to physical danger on a failure; e.g., Counterfeiting, Poisons, Shadowing, and medical skills."

I should mentioned Power-Ups 9 - Alternate Attributes considered HT underpriced:

*Fatigue Points: ±1 FP for [±3]; this is normally equal to the unmodified HT score
*Basic Speed: ±0.25 for [±5]
*HT-based skills: +1 for [1-2]
*HT rolls: +1 to HT rolls [3-4]

It also suggest that if you use the talent option IQ clocks in at 22 to 30 points/level. In a setting with wildcard abilities 40 to 48 points/level for IQ might be viable.

Power-Ups 9 - Alternate Attributes is likely your one stop shop for fiddling around with attribute costs.
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Old 09-19-2022, 04:01 PM   #17
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

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Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
No, in fact what maximara suggests is slightly odd, weird, and GURPS doesn't do that at all.
Uh. What I gave regarding the break down came from Power-Ups 9 - Alternate Attributes. Pages 5 and 12 in fact.

While PU9 does note using Talents as a base for an attribute's cost is a bad idea (pg 9) it does suggest that using them as a guide results in IQ being higher. As much as 30/level barring wildcard skills and changes in Will and Per.
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Old 09-22-2022, 09:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Uh. What I gave regarding the break down came from Power-Ups 9 - Alternate Attributes. Pages 5 and 12 in fact.
Yeah, sorry, Power-Ups 9 does it, and I clearly disagree with that breakdown.

You could easily bump DX and IQ to 40/level each and they would still be a value over buying Talents for most Characters.

Quote:
While PU9 does note using Talents as a base for an attribute's cost is a bad idea (pg 9) ...
That's not actually what it says. Okay, it does, but for different reasons, because Talents "cover more than just skill improvement". (And again, I disagree, I argue that Talents should impact the cost of raw Attributes, Attributes should cost more)

What it's very explicitly ignoring is that Talents need those associated extras to remain competitive with Attributes. Otherwise most Talents are not worth taking (arguably any Talent that costs more than 5/lvl or if you're taking more than one Talent that broadly covers a single Attribute, is no longer worth it, usually).

Why? Because very few Characters have only five skills that belong to a single Attribute, and once you've exceeded ten skills in one Attribute, it's more valuable to just raise the Attribute (actually that hits at 5, or even 4 skills in one Attribute, but then Talents can play a strong price break role at that number of skills). If you're at the edge, exactly 10 skills, it's arguable either way (do not undervalue the raw DX check). But then Talents often have lower caps and a smaller cost.

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... it does suggest that using them as a guide results in IQ being higher.
As well as DX, though I think it's "upper limit" of 35 is still too low. 40/level for DX and IQ almost feel right, actually IQ still feels low, but bumping it up more than that... I don't think it would have a positive impact. As it stands it would inflate the cost of "IQ" characters who tend to have lots of skills that very rarely see use.

And that's a lot of what Power-Ups 9 is trying to hammer home but doesn't really teach well: Figure out what Skills your campaign will be leaning hard on, and balance around those skills if you're planing to change Attribute costs.


For my games splitting out Will and Per and leaving IQ untouched works, because I promote Will and Per skill usage as well as heavily indulge in Social and 'Science/Craft" skill usage. I also heavily use DX Combat and Parkour skills (which also covers HT skills). To be honest, depending on the genre, I sometimes reduce ST, because it's just not a competitive Attribute in the post-modern genres where guns hit harder and equipment weighs drastically less (c-punk and space sci-fi). And I've been doing this since 1990, so it's not exactly a new concept.
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Old 09-23-2022, 12:01 AM   #19
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

Quote:
Originally Posted by mburr0003 View Post
Yeah, sorry, Power-Ups 9 does it, and I clearly disagree with that breakdown.

You could easily bump DX and IQ to 40/level each and they would still be a value over buying Talents for most Characters.


That's not actually what it says. Okay, it does, but for different reasons, because Talents "cover more than just skill improvement". (And again, I disagree, I argue that Talents should impact the cost of raw Attributes, Attributes should cost more)

What it's very explicitly ignoring is that Talents need those associated extras to remain competitive with Attributes. Otherwise most Talents are not worth taking (arguably any Talent that costs more than 5/lvl or if you're taking more than one Talent that broadly covers a single Attribute, is no longer worth it, usually).

Why? Because very few Characters have only five skills that belong to a single Attribute, and once you've exceeded ten skills in one Attribute, it's more valuable to just raise the Attribute (actually that hits at 5, or even 4 skills in one Attribute, but then Talents can play a strong price break role at that number of skills). If you're at the edge, exactly 10 skills, it's arguable either way (do not undervalue the raw DX check). But then Talents often have lower caps and a smaller cost.


As well as DX, though I think it's "upper limit" of 35 is still too low. 40/level for DX and IQ almost feel right, actually IQ still feels low, but bumping it up more than that... I don't think it would have a positive impact. As it stands it would inflate the cost of "IQ" characters who tend to have lots of skills that very rarely see use.

And that's a lot of what Power-Ups 9 is trying to hammer home but doesn't really teach well: Figure out what Skills your campaign will be leaning hard on, and balance around those skills if you're planing to change Attribute costs.


For my games splitting out Will and Per and leaving IQ untouched works, because I promote Will and Per skill usage as well as heavily indulge in Social and 'Science/Craft" skill usage. I also heavily use DX Combat and Parkour skills (which also covers HT skills). To be honest, depending on the genre, I sometimes reduce ST, because it's just not a competitive Attribute in the post-modern genres where guns hit harder and equipment weighs drastically less (c-punk and space sci-fi). And I've been doing this since 1990, so it's not exactly a new concept.
Even in my Deadlands game, I reduced ST and Striking ST by 2 each because with cheap guns, powerful magic, gadgeteers, ST damage seemed a bit over costed. It worked fine.
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Old 09-23-2022, 11:54 PM   #20
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Default Re: [PU9] Cost of IQ under independent Will, Per, Cha

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Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw View Post
Though I'd even more prefer to rename things and/or silo "acts as low IQ" into part of some "Animal Mind" disadvantage rather than require that animals play games with relative IQ to Per ratios.
I've thought about this! In my notes is a "Nonsapient" disad with the effects of all of the following:
  • Incompetence in all IQ-based skills
  • Dyslexia
  • Innumerate
  • Non-Iconographic
  • Spoken comprehension fixed at None for all languages
  • A native TL of "N/A"
It doesn't include Cannot Speak; it assumes you can learn and parrot words and phrases (even deliberately, to elicit specific reactions from listeners!) but that you don't break down anything you say grammatically or have any sense of the generalizable semantics of the words you're uttering (e.g. "Polly want a cracker" is just the thing you say to get the humans to give you that tasty crunchy thing—you don't realize that "Polly" refers to you, "cracker" refers to the tasty crunchy thing, and "want" expresses the subjective experience motivating you to attempt to get the humans to give you the crunchy thing, even if you happen to be fully self-aware and able to consciously recognize your desire for the cracker.)

The trait qualifies you to buy IQ at a −40% limitation, just like No Fine Manipulators does for DX.
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