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Old 05-12-2021, 01:17 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

Obviously eyelids are skin so contact agents should still work, but if you've specified your eyes are shut it seems like you wouldn't have a straight-shot orifice for something entering in.

Or maybe there should be some chance of it seeping in around the edges of the eyelid (the lash-lock) if it's an AE?

B109 specifies for sight-based "Vision-Based attack cannot affect a blind subject or someone with his eyes closed," but that's not quite the same thing, since in theory a blind guy with his eyelids open would be protected from that but not a blood agent attack targeting the eyes.

I wonder if maybe we should assume something along the lines of creatures are assumed to have one level of Nictitating Membrane with Temporary Disadvantage: Blindness? Basically it's EXACTLY "like an eyelid" because TD:blind makes it an opaque covering and not a "transparent lens" as B71 specifies.

Or maybe not a full level but something like a tenth of a level (DR 0.1) of 'tough skin' flexible Dr on eyes so in theory it blocks blood agents but isn't enough (when rounding to full numbers as GURPS usually does) to actually lessen damage to the eyeball which takes 1/10 HP to cripple?

If we were using tenths of damage I could see perhaps something like 0.1 damage being prevented to the eyeball by a closed eyelid. It should definitely slow a tiny needle to some small degree, converting Small Piercing into Crushing perhaps as it spreads out the force up until the skin is breached?

The -50% for the Temporary Disadvantage might be offset by +40% for Reflexive. Probably it would be Uncontrollable -10% (you blink reflexively when your eye is attacked and need to make a will roll to force them open) so that's probably a net -20% for 0.8 points.

You could probably do somethin akin to a Power Dodge to cover "do I shut my eyes fast enough to avoid something".

Power Block wouldn't be appropriate here since you shouldn't be able to double your DR or HT bonus. Power Block is I think meant for improving already-on defenses and doesn't conceptually fit here.

GURPS Martial Arts 72 talks about the "flinching" rule for attacks against eyes, which is an attack/defense roll penalty if you fail to defend against the attack, in addition to usual effects, meaning you're penalized even if you don't take damage because of Nictitating Membrane or a force field or because Eye-Poke rolled 0 damage.

makes me wonder if "doesn't flinch from eye attacks" would be some kind of perk. It's probably overpriced so no harm done if allowed, considering No Eyes is merely 5 to buy and gives complete immunity to all blinding.
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:29 PM   #2
ravenfish
 
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Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

I probably wouldn't spend too much effort on rules for closing eyes against blood agents. While the membranes of the eye are one entry point, there's also the mucous membranes of the nasal passages, which are harder to quickly- and even considering only the eyes, closing them doesn't create anything like an airtight seal. Ultimately, if you want anything more than a small bonus to the resistance roll, you'll need a sealed face mask.
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Old 05-12-2021, 01:46 PM   #3
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

An area-effect blood agent - which is probably what you're dealing with - has a lot more than just the eyes available to it. The nostrils, the ear canals, and the inner surface of the lips are all mucous membranes on the head, and you've got some down south as well (although clothing can help protect you there). Additionally, any cut, scrape, etc that hasn't at least scabbed over is a point of entry. So, yeah, if you aren't Sealed, a blood agent area of effect is going to get you, open eyes or not.

If it's something that only hits your eye, closing your eye and then holding your head down (so it doesn't drain and pool at the bottom of your eye socket, which will likely allow it to get past your eyelashes and into the mucous membranes around your eye; this also prevents it from draining down and into your mouth) may protect you. That's an extreme edge case, however - and at best, you're maybe looking at +1 to defense (if it was an attack you were trying to avoid; you could also have this be a small bonus to HT to resist), and if the +1 makes a difference you suffer One Eye, take a further penalty to Sight (most people will squint with their other eye if holding one closed, and even if not facing the ground isn't very conducive to seeing things in front of you) and DX (not being able to see well is going to make fighting harder), and foes can target your Skull from the front at only -5, until you're able to thoroughly wash your face. Not really worth the complication to implement, I feel.
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Old 05-12-2021, 03:33 PM   #4
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

Blood agents are prone to being persistent enough that they'll just get you when you open your eyes unless you first clean the area pretty thoroughly, but yes, the entire point of eyelids is to protect you from things getting in your eye.
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Old 05-12-2021, 04:58 PM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

The interesting thing on B437 is there's no emphasis on eyes being open, just the mouth and wound...

"Blood Agent: The poison must reach a mucous membrane (eyes,
openmouth, nose, etc.) or an open wound."

I don't know that the seal of one's lips protects the mouth to that much greater a degree than closed eyelids protect the eyes though, has anyone done any studies on that?

Closing your eyes even for short periods is a big problem in combat which is why basic rules probably assume you're not doing it (though blind fighters probably could, and people might do it in pitch darkness) whereas you can keep your mouth closed with minimal problems for short periods and just breathe through nose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
I probably wouldn't spend too much effort on rules for closing eyes against blood agents. While the membranes of the eye are one entry point, there's also the mucous membranes of the nasal passages
I don't know what the penalty is for hitting those though, nor even the mouth. Probably something adjacent to the -6/-7 for jaw/nose in MA137 but I'm thinking -10 for a nostrils since it's smaller than an eye and -8 for a fully-opened mouth since it's larger than an eye.

I probably should've clarified that I meant the Blood Agent -40% limitation for targeted attacks on B110, not B102's Blood Agent enhancement for AE attacks.

About the only thing other than targeting eyes at -9 that I'm aware of for delivering blood agents is B162's "Wounded" hit location at -7

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
which are harder to quickly- and even considering only the eyes, closing them doesn't create anything like an airtight seal. Ultimately, if you want anything more than a small bonus to the resistance roll, you'll need a sealed face mask.
Yeah but it doesn't need to be airtight to keep out standard non-AE blood agent attacks. My guess is targeting "the rim of the eyelids behind cover of the lashes" would be even trickier than the -9 to just hit the eye, like at least extra -2 (-11 net) for being behind partial cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
An area-effect blood agent - which is probably what you're dealing with - has a lot more than just the eyes available to it. The nostrils, the ear canals, and the inner surface of the lips are all mucous membranes on the head, and you've got some down south as well (although clothing can help protect you there). Additionally, any cut, scrape, etc that hasn't at least scabbed over is a point of entry. So, yeah, if you aren't Sealed, a blood agent area of effect is going to get you, open eyes or not.
Yeah I'm sorry I failed to communicate this effectively, I didn't mean the "surrounds and touches every part of you" AE sort of blood agent, but the "I'm shooting a beam at you" kind of non-AE one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Blood agents are prone to being persistent enough that they'll just get you when you open your eyes unless you first clean the area pretty thoroughly, but yes, the entire point of eyelids is to protect you from things getting in your eye.
Non-AE attacks can't take persistent and aside from basic set's AE of 2 yards (targeted hex and 6 adjacents) for +50 I've only seen the +25% for just-one-hex done.

Not sure if you could do an even smaller kind of AE like "a place smaller than a hex" whcih would exist mostly as a vehicle for legalizing Persistent and doing stuff like "I only need to target your face to hit you in the eye" type of thing, like maybe +10% for a 1ft bubble instead of a 3ft bubble?
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:09 PM   #6
Anthony
 
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Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Non-AE attacks can't take persistent and aside from basic set's AE of 2 yards (targeted hex and 6 adjacents) for +50 I've only seen the +25% for just-one-hex done.
Not talking about the GURPS term persistent (if you wanted GURPS terms, most of them should be cyclic with low base damage). I'm talking about 'shampoo dripped down from my hair over my eyes and, sure, closing my eye helps, but if I open my eyes before it's all cleared off, it's still going to hurt'.
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Old 05-12-2021, 06:52 PM   #7
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
The interesting thing on B437 is there's no emphasis on eyes being open, just the mouth and wound...

"Blood Agent: The poison must reach a mucous membrane (eyes,
openmouth, nose, etc.) or an open wound."

I don't know that the seal of one's lips protects the mouth to that much greater a degree than closed eyelids protect the eyes though, has anyone done any studies on that?
Your eyelids are not your eyes. Your closed mouth is still your mouth. It's a consequence of semantics, not a special emphasis.
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Old 05-12-2021, 07:09 PM   #8
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Yeah I'm sorry I failed to communicate this effectively, I didn't mean the "surrounds and touches every part of you" AE sort of blood agent, but the "I'm shooting a beam at you" kind of non-AE one.
For any kind of attack this modifier actually makes sense for I think the eyelids will fail to protect, since the agent that splashes over them *is* going to get into your eyes, and frankly probably your mouth too, as it runs down your face. For a "beam" yeah it's arguably ambiguous, but a "blood agent beam" sounds pretty nonsensical in itself.

I think this is one of those places where people are trying to get the letter of the rules to tell them how the universe works when the *purpose* of those rules is exactly the reverse - to model something real in the game system.
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Old 05-12-2021, 07:17 PM   #9
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

Single target would be something like spitting cobra venom. Skunk spray is kind of an edge case between area and single target.
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Old 05-12-2021, 08:24 PM   #10
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: should closed eyes protect against blood agents?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malloyd View Post
For any kind of attack this modifier actually makes sense for I think the eyelids will fail to protect, since the agent that splashes over them *is* going to get into your eyes, and frankly probably your mouth too, as it runs down your face. For a "beam" yeah it's arguably ambiguous, but a "blood agent beam" sounds pretty nonsensical in itself.

I think this is one of those places where people are trying to get the letter of the rules to tell them how the universe works when the *purpose* of those rules is exactly the reverse - to model something real in the game system.
You can't close your eyes and mouth such that outside liquids don't get in them?

If you open your eyes without washing it off first, sure, but that's why you don't do that...
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