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Old 05-22-2019, 11:20 AM   #11
randiv
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

I find this discussion disheartening. I have always held up SJG as a model of playtesting and blindtesting. It sounds like the exact opposite is now the case. Rules edits were not blindtested, and player feedback was ignored. Now that muddled rules are out in the field, the is no visible effort to clarify the intent of confusing rules.

I have become used to Board Game Geek, where game designers regularly appear on the forums to clarify rules questions. I really don't think that is too much of an imposition on the game publisher. (That said, I would accept a statement that feedback is being gathered and an official FAQ will appear at some point soon.)
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:24 AM   #12
kjamma4
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Chicagoland Area, Illinois
Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobW View Post

RAW: You snuck up behind your opponent, but oh no, now you can't Defend!
That's because you were not engaged if you are in the enemy's rear hex, and so you can't select option (k).

You and your buddy have surrounded the troll, Buddy's is in the troll's front hex, you're in the troll's rear hex. Troll has initiative and makes your side move first. You and Buddy stay put! You've got the troll surrounded! But now troll spins around to face you. Since you weren't engaged when it was your time to move, you couldn't select option (k).
This one sort of makes sense as you were probably preparing to attack but the troll's move took you off guard so you cannot properly defend yourself.

However, something like HERO's "abort to dodge" would probably work best.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:34 PM   #13
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

Has anyone checked yet to see if the Decks of Destiny has a card for Defend and what it says? (I'm hoping it clarifies you can move 1/2 MA and Defend, but I have a bad feeling it just copies the Options table and is going to perpetuate this confusion...)
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:39 AM   #14
RobW
 
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Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

I wanted to check but I'm not on the first wave.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:28 AM   #15
Shostak
 
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Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Has anyone checked yet to see if the Decks of Destiny has a card for Defend and what it says? (I'm hoping it clarifies you can move 1/2 MA and Defend, but I have a bad feeling it just copies the Options table and is going to perpetuate this confusion...)
I just checked and there is no Move and Defend card. In fact, the Defend and Dodge cards have errors that I need to report. I'll take the opportunity to suggest the Move and Defend option.

EDIT: Nope, I was wrong. The wording is correct, just not what I was expecting which made me misread.

Last edited by Shostak; 06-12-2019 at 11:33 AM. Reason: Correction
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:33 PM   #16
RobW
 
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Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

I'm curious, what's the new wording?
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:01 PM   #17
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

"You and your buddy have surrounded the troll, Buddy's is in the troll's front hex, you're in the troll's rear hex. Troll has initiative and makes your side move first. You and Buddy stay put! You've got the troll surrounded! But now troll spins around to face you. Since you weren't engaged when it was your time to move, you couldn't select option"

I don't see it that way. Yes, engagement status affects the move portion of your turn but it can also affect the action portion too.

In the example above, you're in the Trolls rear hex and therefore unengaged and you choose not to move. In the Troll's movement phase it spins round so it's now in your front hexes and you are engaged.

In your action phase you can select Defend since you are now engaged.

I don't see a probalem with that. Engagement is dynamic and changes during both movement and action phases of a turn.
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Old 06-13-2019, 02:07 PM   #18
Shostak
 
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Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

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Originally Posted by RobW View Post
I'm curious, what's the new wording?
Attacks are at +1 die instead of saying they are made on four dice. I carelessly overlooked the word "die", much to my chagrin.
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:46 AM   #19
RobW
 
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Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
In the example above, you're in the Trolls rear hex and therefore unengaged and you choose not to move. In the Troll's movement phase it spins round so it's now in your front hexes and you are engaged.

In your action phase you can select Defend since you are now engaged.

I don't see a probalem with that. Engagement is dynamic and changes during both movement and action phases of a turn.
I certainly agree with your last sentence. But it is emphasised 3 times in ITL that it is engagement status when your turn comes to move that counts for available options. And re your suggestion on engagement status when it comes time to act -- which btw I think is entirely reasonable, playable, and produces sensible outcomes in all the cases I described -- nowhere I can find does it say or imply that engagement when your turn comes to act might be determining.

And worse, the recently released pdf proofs for the upcoming "player aid" cards use similar wording, and the same option letters. In fact, it says on one of the cards you choose from yellow options if you are disengaged when your turn to move comes, and the pink ones if you are engaged when your turn to move comes. So they've not just copied and pasted, they have deliberately reworded, to express in yet a 4th way, that it is when your turn to move that is meant to be determining. There's no option for defending among the yellow cards. The blue Shift and Defend card says you can shift or stay still. Shifting is elsewhere defined in ITL p103 as something you can do when engaged and your turn comes to move.

RAW are very clear, it's just that in this instance they are bugged. Yuck! Everyone should be encouraged to do something other than RAW in this case. Given the existence of these "player aids" it is probably simplest to do the Skarg trick of saying when SJ says "turn comes to move" (4 times), read as "turn comes to act"! And then reword in your minds that Shift and Defend doesn't really mean "Shift" and Defend, but just "Move 1 hex" and Defend. And then, if you like, that "move 1 hex" actually means move 1/2 MA, but only if you want to get really, like, crazy man.

One thing that the "player aids" might clarify is that Dodge is no different from any other option (ie p102 the confusing "move while dodging" wording has been removed), but we can leave that for another thread.

Last edited by RobW; 06-21-2019 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 06-21-2019, 12:47 PM   #20
MikMod
 
Join Date: May 2019
Default Re: For SJ, where's the Move and Defend and option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobW View Post
it is emphasised 3 times in ITL that it is engagement status when your turn comes to move that counts for available options.
ITL p102, heading up the options list: "During a turn, a player may change his mind about a figures's option, as long as... that figure did not move too far to allow it to take the new option"

Isn't this completely clear? There is even an example of someone changing their minds a few pages later.

ITL p107: "It is legal to change to an attack option when your turn comes to act, if you did not move more than the option allows. For instance, if a figure stood still during movement, intending to 'change weapons' and an enemy moved into one of his front hexes to attack, then the first figure could change to option (a) and attack."

ITL p127 the example combat - Kov decides to cast a spell, then, after movement, changes his mind and attacks instead.

Last edited by MikMod; 06-21-2019 at 12:51 PM.
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