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Old 04-18-2020, 08:58 PM   #11
onetrikpony
 
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

In the 'BYOBlaster" rules in Pyramid;
The curves; (dice/n)^3 Empty Weight, (dice^2)*Generator factor*Array range combined with the Tech Level advancement for Shots-per-dice-per-C-Cell do 'effectively' increase damage at later tech levels.

They just don't work well when going down tech levels.

This is understandable. TL9 to TL10 lasers in UT, use a different technology for Lasing medium, for example. Even speculative future parallel technologies don't usually fit well on the same curve, because they're parallel.

I suspect that while going over his outline and napkin math the author said; "TL11 cannon, check; 4000lb. TL10 cannon... why?! Aw hell; TL10 cannon, half dice, 4000lb."

The pyramid rules are a little bit simple; to enable doing the figures long hand on the back of a character sheet, probably. They kind of can, but don't really, facilitate engineering different form factors with different technology through different tech levels.

If you're building REALY BIG GUNS, you should probably be using the rules from spaceships. (the old Mecha book is kind of fun too.)

For middle weight lasers and blasters here's what I did to Mr. Pulver's very nice system.

Added a TL generator efficiency modifier
TL9- 1.5, TL9 1.2, TL10 1, TL10+ 0.8,

Created individual weight factors for generators on IR Lasers, MS Lasers, Particle beams, each has a different modifier for single shot through gatling i.e.;
MS Laser; Single shot 1, Semi auto 1.25, Rapid Fire 1.5, Full Auto 2, "gatling" 2.25

Added new "Rb" (from range; pg 13) factors for each type of beam in each form factor category i.e.; Blaster pistol 26, rifle 32, cannon 50.

I also did some stuff that's very specific to my setting and probably unrealistic like changing the 'shots-per-c-cell' efficiency. And writing in a function for maximum shots per turn or your power cell explodes.
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Old 04-18-2020, 09:15 PM   #12
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

Quote:
Originally Posted by onetrikpony View Post
In the 'BYOBlaster" rules in Pyramid;
The curves; (dice/n)^3 Empty Weight, (dice^2)*Generator factor*Array range combined with the Tech Level advancement for Shots-per-dice-per-C-Cell do 'effectively' increase damage at later tech levels.

They just don't work well when going down tech levels.

This is understandable. TL9 to TL10 lasers in UT, use a different technology for Lasing medium, for example. Even speculative future parallel technologies don't usually fit well on the same curve, because they're parallel.

I suspect that while going over his outline and napkin math the author said; "TL11 cannon, check; 4000lb. TL10 cannon... why?! Aw hell; TL10 cannon, half dice, 4000lb."

The pyramid rules are a little bit simple; to enable doing the figures long hand on the back of a character sheet, probably. They kind of can, but don't really, facilitate engineering different form factors with different technology through different tech levels.

If you're building REALY BIG GUNS, you should probably be using the rules from spaceships. (the old Mecha book is kind of fun too.)

For middle weight lasers and blasters here's what I did to Mr. Pulver's very nice system.

Added a TL generator efficiency modifier
TL9- 1.5, TL9 1.2, TL10 1, TL10+ 0.8,

Created individual weight factors for generators on IR Lasers, MS Lasers, Particle beams, each has a different modifier for single shot through gatling i.e.;
MS Laser; Single shot 1, Semi auto 1.25, Rapid Fire 1.5, Full Auto 2, "gatling" 2.25

Added new "Rb" (from range; pg 13) factors for each type of beam in each form factor category i.e.; Blaster pistol 26, rifle 32, cannon 50.

I also did some stuff that's very specific to my setting and probably unrealistic like changing the 'shots-per-c-cell' efficiency. And writing in a function for maximum shots per turn or your power cell explodes.
Interesting house rules. There is certainly a certain uniformity in certain numbers. ;)

I fear you are right in that the article may have been written with design-on-the-fly in mind; either that, or space constraints.

In any case, I view design such as this something to do up-front, and have a much more forgiving view towards up-front math than I do for in-play math. So I would much rather have the full formula than a "back of the character sheet" formula.
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Old 04-18-2020, 09:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
Your descriptions are interesting and flavourful, but some of the stats seem to be missing. :)

Found it, I think:
https://gurb3d6.blogspot.com/2017/01/moar-dakka.html
Stats are in the first page of the thread I linked. :)
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Old 04-18-2020, 09:40 PM   #14
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
I just did a quick run-down. Single-shot, Small focal array, Cannon configuration, 50d damage (like the TL10 one), and 10 TL10 non-rechargeable F-cells comes to 3,700 lbs, ST 140M, Shots 20(5), and range 40K/120K - which is close to the TL10 line. Adjusting for TL11 and 100d, like the listed blaster cannon, gives much different stats overall than UT: Range 160K/480K, weight 30,000 lbs, and ST 416M, whereas UT has Range 120K/360K, weight 4,000 lbs (identical to the lower TL cannon above it), and ST 160M (again, identical to the lower TL cannon above).

"identical to the lower TL cannon above" that does half the damage.

I think that's the key right there.
It implies an eight-fold increase in energy output for the same weight. As the REF of TL11 power cells is four times that of TL10 power cells when using them as explosives, which could be taken as meaning that TL11 cells are four times as power dense as TL10 cells (which Pyr #3-37 also does), the TL11 UT blaster would also seem to be twice as power efficient.
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Last edited by Rupert; 04-18-2020 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 04-18-2020, 09:43 PM   #15
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
It implies an eight-fold increase in energy output for the same weight. As the REF of TL11 power cells is four times that of TL10 power cells when using them as explosives, which could be taken as meaning that TL11 cells are four times as power dense as TL10 cells, the TL11 UT blaster would also seem to be twice as power efficient.
The "actual power" of a weapon, as shown by the math for the number of shots per power cell, is equal to the cube of the damage; thus, the actual DR of a weapon is equal to the cube of the DR.

To make them equivalent, damage dice can be multiplied by 4 and then have any adds, well, added, or DR can be divided by 4 and then compared to dice with fractional adds (such as 7.5d instead of 7d+2).
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Old 04-18-2020, 09:49 PM   #16
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

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Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
The "actual power" of a weapon, as shown by the math for the number of shots per power cell, is equal to the cube of the damage; thus, the actual DR of a weapon is equal to the cube of the DR.

To make them equivalent, damage dice can be multiplied by 4 and then have any adds, well, added, or DR can be divided by 4 and then compared to dice with fractional adds (such as 7.5d instead of 7d+2).
...How did DR suddenly jump into this, and what do you mean by "the actual DR of a weapon"? That phrase should mean the DR that applies when the weapon itself takes a hit, but that's clearly not what you are talking about.
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:18 PM   #17
Say, it isn't that bad!
 
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
...How did DR suddenly jump into this, and what do you mean by "the actual DR of a weapon"? That phrase should mean the DR that applies when the weapon itself takes a hit, but that's clearly not what you are talking about.
...I wroit that post vary gud. :D

Anyway, let me try that again.

On page 14 of Pyramid #3/37, in the article "Beam and Laser Design", under the section header "Shots", it lays out the math for how many shots a power cell can hold. The math uses 1d damage as the baseline for the number of shots provided to various weapons from a "C" power cell of Tech Levels 9, 10, 11, and 12.

The short of it is, you take the number of shots provided to a 1d damage weapon by that tech level, number, and size of power cell, and divide it by the dice of damage, cubed.

For example, using a theoretical power cell which provides 1,000 1d shots, and a theoretical weapon which does 7d+2 damage, the formula would be:

(1,000) / 7.5^3 = 2.3 (we then drop the fraction to get 2 shots).

There are two relevant parts for the first conclusion. The first one is that power usage scales with the cube of the damage dice. The second is that energy weapon efficiency is flat; for example, as I understand it, laser weapons are 50% efficient.

The efficiency term, being a flat number, can then be dropped when deriving how much "raw power" a shot has - it's "actual value".

So, for example, 7d+2 (7.5d) damage has a raw power, in abstract numbers, of 421.875.

From there, a DR of 30 has a raw power, in abstract numbers, of 27,000.

Making these "raw power" numbers equivalent is then a matter of multiplying 7d by 4, then adding 2, getting a total of 30, and a "raw power" of 27,000.

Or, dividing the DR by 4, getting a total of 7.5, and a "raw power" of 421.875.

I am uncertain of the utility of this, but it does give us a linear scale for damage and DR.
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Old 04-18-2020, 10:34 PM   #18
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
It implies an eight-fold increase in energy output for the same weight. As the REF of TL11 power cells is four times that of TL10 power cells when using them as explosives, which could be taken as meaning that TL11 cells are four times as power dense as TL10 cells (which Pyr #3-37 also does), the TL11 UT blaster would also seem to be twice as power efficient.
Actually, I was implying "cut and paste error in the text" myself, as UT is one of those early books that was rushed through without a proper Kromm-edit.
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Old 04-18-2020, 11:03 PM   #19
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
The efficiency term, being a flat number, can then be dropped when deriving how much "raw power" a shot has - it's "actual value".

So, for example, 7d+2 (7.5d) damage has a raw power, in abstract numbers, of 421.875.
This is where you take a sudden turn into opacity. I have no idea what "raw power" or "actual value" means to you here, neither phrase makes any sense to me and they're the only explanations you've given of what you're doing here.

It seems like you're trying to assign some manner of general significance to the cube of the dice of damage, but you're not explaining exactly what significance. I suspect you're over-broadening it. Not all weapons have damage scale as the cube root of energy.

(You seem like the kind of person who might enjoy this article quite a bit. I believe we've been told that that's not exactly the official behind-the-scenes calculations but it's pretty close.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad! View Post
From there, a DR of 30 has a raw power, in abstract numbers, of 27,000.
So, two big big problems here.

One, you've changed from talking about damage to talking about DR without making any kind of transition, again.

Secondly, you slipped up on the math. Your metric was the cube of the dice of damage. If you're treating 'DR' and 'damage' as interchangeable, you should have cubed 30/3.5 and gotten 629.7.
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Old 04-18-2020, 11:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: Weighty problem when attempting to reproduce Blaster Cannon canon; Pyramid #3/37

I was talking about what we see in UT. In UT is can be seen from how the number of shots and damage scales in pistols and rifles that damage is proportional to the cube root of power (as with Pyr #3-37). The rules for using power cells as explosives imply that for TL10-11 there's a four-fold increase in energy density for power cells (also as in Pyr #3-37). These two things, combined with the doubling of damage for the same weight of the TL11 cannon compared to the TL10 cannon mean that the TL11 version must have either times the power output for the same weight, and twice the efficiency.

How you should reconcile this with Pyr #3-37 I can't tell you.
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