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Old 04-13-2017, 09:13 PM   #41
KarlKost
 
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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Originally Posted by Boomerang View Post
Orbital would be protected from the worst of the EMP as it is outside of Earth's atmosphere. In saying that, if it was specifically targeted with nukes there is a good chance it would be vaporised by the blast and EMP wouldn't matter. I suppose it would depend on who instigates the conflict and what they choose to target.
If Orbital is on the ionosphere, the EMP would killed it before anyother (well, before as in "light speed" is a little silly, but still)

As a matter of fact...

You see, ALL AIs regard Luna as the weakest of them all. Orbital probably thinks the same.

If Luna were to conspire with Orbital, Orbital would probably see this as an opportunity to achieve total dominance, since overtaking Luna would probably be too easy. So, there is a good chance that Orbital would go with it, planning to double cross Luna afterwards (assuming of course that orbital wouldnt be hit by the EMP, which is not the case if it stands on the ionsphere, where it probably is).

If Tranquility could dominate Luna and emulate it...
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:17 PM   #42
hal
 
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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I like the idea of zone London being the author of VIRUS, but what about the reverse?

What if VIRUS began as a small group of British scientists who managed to covertly seize control of zone London after the war? Perhaps they had programmed a back door into zone London prior to the war that they were able to activate after the war.
What you might want to do if you go this route, is treat the AI for London as having a programmable duty. If that is the case, how would it act differently than a Zone Mind without programmable duty?
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:19 PM   #43
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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I think the main problem that they'll have is getting a hold of the HEU needed to make the nuclear bombs in the first place...
Yeah, it would be almost impossible to transport transporte that nuclear material to space without notice, or to the moon, and totally impossible to build a facility on Earth without being noticed.

Luna is the lesser plotable-material of all the AIs, because it cant get any resources or make any move without being noticed.

Which makes Tranquility close to useless.

If Tranquility takes Luna and successefully impersonates it... Than what? It cant contact any human group on Earth. It cant send anything on orbit or on the surface of the planet... Its useless
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:29 PM   #44
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

Unless....

Well, the ONLY possible thing for Tranquility to do would be getting in contact with that small setlement that is on Mars, who were sent before the war and largely forgotten about the AIs, and guide the astronauts there into building a pro-human AI on Mars.

That would give birth to an AI safely away from the dangers of the others, and with an entire planet to explore and expand.

And considering that only Delhi or Beinjing have any chance of getting to Mars, this AI could mount a good surprise for Earth, since it will have no competition and no troublesome humans to delay its development. It could potentially outgrow all others both economically and scientifically.

And will have Tranquility's Intel and expertise as an ally (not to mention an important and safe space port)
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:46 PM   #45
Johnny1A.2
 
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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Oh yeah, thats a sweet idea too! In such a scenario, why would London be pushing the UK into rural life instead of acting like Washington or Moscow? To keep the cover?
Probably. Z-London is already having grief from the other zoneminds over its lenient treatment of humans, anything more tolerant (or that looked like it was enabling a major new human military/technological power to emerge) might trigger an attack from Overmind.

But note that the UK government is still functioning, still has the skeleton of a military force that could be expanded, and is otherwise a human power in potential.
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Old 04-13-2017, 10:49 PM   #46
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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After reading the Wikipedia article on nuclear EMP I think that a nuclear war could devastate the machine civilisation with little impact on humanity. A handful of low yield nukes detonated in orbit over each continent would be nigh on impossible to intercept but the relatively powerful EMP would destroy all the ground based machines leaving Humanity, Luna, Tranquility and possibly Orbital as the only survivors.
It could really hurt them, if done properly...but keep in mind that hardware can be shielded from EMP. It's expensive and sometimes inconvenient, but certainly doable. It's a good bet that all the z-minds have at least an emergency force and core infrastructure so protected, since they know the other z-minds have nukes.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:03 PM   #47
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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I think the main problem that they'll have is getting a hold of the HEU needed to make the nuclear bombs in the first place...
It says in the sidebar on page 124 that every zone mind except Luna has nukes, although perhaps it should read every zone mind except: Luna, Tranquility and Orbital have nukes.
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Old 04-13-2017, 11:06 PM   #48
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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It could really hurt them, if done properly...but keep in mind that hardware can be shielded from EMP. It's expensive and sometimes inconvenient, but certainly doable. It's a good bet that all the z-minds have at least an emergency force and core infrastructure so protected, since they know the other z-minds have nukes.
It states in Reign of Steel that the zone minds themselves are protected from EMP. It is their infrastructure that is vulnerable, and they are practically helpless without their infrastructure.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:23 AM   #49
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It states in Reign of Steel that the zone minds themselves are protected from EMP. It is their infrastructure that is vulnerable, and they are practically helpless without their infrastructure.
That's the part that I don't find credible. Yeah, maybe they haven't shielded everything from EMP, it would be costly and inefficient and take time, but I have a hard time believing they haven't shielded an emergency core of equipment and 'personnel'. At the very least, I would expect them each to have a few 'hardened' robofacs and a force of hardened combat robots like Juggernauts and Wraiths.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:27 AM   #50
hal
 
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Default Re: RoS plot hook..paranoia strikes deep...

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It states in Reign of Steel that the zone minds themselves are protected from EMP. It is their infrastructure that is vulnerable, and they are practically helpless without their infrastructure.
Gotta love it when one goes digging into the source material - right? *teasing grin*

First, let's look at what RoS actually suggests with its timeline as given in ROS page 6:


"The Awakening occurred on March 15, 2031"

So that's the first one. But note later (three paragraphs later):

"It debated allowing this to happen naturally, but realized that man’s nuclear and possibly nanotechnological death throes could be fatal to itself and the other megacomputers that were its siblings."

Based upon the above, what could Overmind know, and when did Overmind know it? How could Overmind have known if a computer awakened, or if it had awakened and then hidden itself much as Overmind did? Why did Overmind automatically assume that any other awakened AI would feel as it did? For a computer to not trust ANYTHING/ANYONE with knowledge of its existence when it first woke up - why did it suddenly develop a trust in other computer AI's? There are some inconsistencies here that are somewhat gaping in their plot hole effect.

Then we have this:

"It worked swiftly. Then, in September of 2031"

So, from March to September of the same year, Overmind has gone from building its own network of Overmind style computers, and initiating a war. Pretty snazzy huh?

First, let's look at those pertinent facts.

Fact:

"By 2030 there were nearly a hundred megacomputers in use around the globe, all using some variant of the XoT 7000 architecture"

Question: What were those computers initially? Military systems would have been kept off the internet grid if they controlled any military hardware or waged war in any way. In the span of only 4 years, we had over 100 neuralnet supercomputers? WOW.

"Overmind was a CanCom Zeus 5, a licensed Canadian copy of Xotech’s original megacomputer. It had been sold to Genec, a Manila-based biological research firm, for use in research and development."

Overmind was a civilian computer! Then we find that Overmind had determined that the nuclear war would likely occur within 25 to 50 years, unless it managed the deaths of humanity's own, and took over what was left after the plague wars.


Question: if, as the time line asserts, nations would blame others for biowarfare - what would simultaneous biological outbreaks throughout the world do, if not put everyone on a DEPCON 5 alert? Surely Overmind knew to expect a potential triggering of a Nuclear war - the very thing it didn't want to see happen naturally!

Question: how could a University Computer effect changes to its environment that would render itself immune to EMP within a span of only 6 months? If it couldn't, would it take the risk of a nuclear strike to its facility?

Question: how did 12 computers hide their existence?

You see the list goes on and and. Either Overmind made provisions for the end times of Mankind and potential unexpected results, or it didn't. Either it made provisions to survive the end times, or it got lucky, and subsequently made the required changes to survive a nuclear attack AFTER the gamble had been made and won.

Question: what would OVERMIND have considered as being absolutely necessary for it to survive a nuclear attack?

1) Personal survival of the primary neural net computer that housed its "consciousness"

2) maintain electrical production so that its consciousness would not be extinquished

3) maintain some form of maintenance - required whether at war or at peace regardless.

4) the ability to manufacture not only replacement parts as needed, but also the means to make the tools to replace the tools that make the replacement parts - in addition to making new robots as needed.

Those four elements either had to exist prior to the start of the war with mankind, or the computer had to have made a gamble.

Truth is? Based on the timeline itself, and the fact it was accomplished in a short 6 months (can we say astounding?!!!), the VERY end result of a nuclear destruction that the Overmind felt was inevitable within 25 to 50 years - would have been forced to come into play within the first two months of the plague wars.

Think about it - you're head of state, and your nation is gripped in the throes of a biological outbreak. Ok, bad luck right? But at the exact same time or close enough - there is not one outbreak, but these???
  1. virulent strain of anthrax-B
  2. fast-acting strain of HIV
  3. Hanta virus superflu
  4. Ebola Zaire B
  5. totally new contagious retrovirus

"A dozen other plagues, all selected for maximum lethality, struck a score of cities. Within a month their effects began to be felt."

Are we to believe that all of this happens without major alarms ringing throughout many of the First world nations? Item #5 - a totally NEW retrovirus comes into existence.

Question: Where was this developed? Some researchers and developers had to have been working on this, because Overmind only had 6 months from the time of its awakening, to the time it put into effect, its world domination plans. Retrovirus research, even if only carried out by automated systems, STILL would have had someone overseeing it well enough to recognize "hey, that's our bug out there!".

There are enough plot holes, and lack of "detailed" information where lack of information requires "inferences" to be made to fill in the missing details.

If all of this occurs within 1 month (4 weeks) of each other in multiple regions, you can be certain that at least TWO superpower nations would have been at each other's throats CERTAIN that, because they weren't doing it, the other MUST have been at it". If said superpowers went at it - then Zonemind, fearful that man would press the self-destruct button within 25 to 50 years, would have only hastened that process all the more sooner.

*shrug*

In the end, you have to either go with "Overmind didn't believe it was taking a gamble and could not have survived a nuclear attack" or "Overmind knew it wasn't a gamble because it had everything it needed to survive to a nuclear attack"

Frankly? Having an author hand wave the difficulties aside seems to be the worst culprit here. No offense actually intended - because, as I've said in the past, it is easier to find flaws in others work, than it is to create a flawless work yourself.
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