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Old 07-25-2022, 08:03 PM   #31
jason taylor
 
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

European martial arts might include quarterstaff. Also that Irish walking stick with the cute name.
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Old 07-26-2022, 06:48 PM   #32
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

Stilletto: Aside from being a traditional feature of mafia feuds it was used presumably by the jealous husband that according to legend instigated the Sicilian Vespers by stabbing a Frenchman indulging in harassment. It is descended from the knightly mercy dagger and is an optimized stabbing knife with no other practical use. But when it does stab it stabs well due to the needle like blade. Good for an assassin, reasonable as a sidearm, or a main-gauche.

Navaja/Salvavirgo: Mostly a peasant's weapon in Spain but the existence of custom designs prove some high status folk liked it. Salvavirgo is a Navaja in a woman's possession. It's nickname (virginity saviour) indicates it's purpose, which was useful in Spain which had periods of incompetent law enforcement. In game terms it would be something to give a female PC much like a Naginata. But either a male or female can handle it.

Broadsword. A classic for Medieval's of high enough status to afford the ironmongery of a real sword.

Side Sword. A town sword rather than a miltary one, though presumably officers would carry it if it was to their taste, at least infantry ones who need only a side arm for direct self-defense and administering discipline (cavalry officers get into the thick of it and need something heavy). A side sword is less heavy than a proper broadsword but has enough mass to cut as well as thrust.

Rapier: ancestor of the modern epee. A nearly pure thrusting sword: often edged to prevent grasping and allow non-lethal cuts as a secondary attack (in the movie Rob Roy, the villain used this to bleed out the hero partly because it was a legitimate tactic but partly to toy with his opponent). Often paired with a left hand device such as a buckler, cloak, or main-gauche dagger.

Small Sword: The final evolution of the Rapier. By this time it was mainly a dueling piece, though it might be useful to have around if going into a bad part of town.
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Old 07-26-2022, 07:11 PM   #33
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
I think I've related this before, but: When I started gaming with D&D, my local gaming group simply wasn't familiar with "monk" in the sense of Shaolin Temple monk. We pictured the monk class as tonsured, monastic, European monks. Who, for some reason, had weird powers and weapons. We really didn't ask why; it was D&D.

You could always combine them, like in "Kung Fu Antipopes"...
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Old 07-26-2022, 08:43 PM   #34
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

For the fun of it, here are names suggested above for chi-like "inner" sources of power, from a non=East=Asian perspective:

Quote:
Pneuma (Classical Greece)
Baraka (Arabic)
Ruach (Hebrew)
Arete
Numen (early 20th century)
Inner Light (Quakers)
Aether
Odic force
Elan vital
Vril
Prana
Going back to the OP, a GM could take one of these, define it as chi under a different name, and create cool powers based it, for Euro monks or dervishes or what have you.

(Or create a new power source that isn't chi. I think I'd pass on that myself, though, simply to avoid power source overload: chi, psi, Power Investiture, magery/mana, all the weird variants in Summoners...)

A couple of thoughts:

1) Here's an interesting (?) setup: A Christian monastic order with the heretical belief that the super-feats of Moses, Samson, Jesus, etc. came from this inner ruach. They may hold that the Divine inspired these heroes, guided them, maybe even granted them Ruach Talent and its associated skills and powers... but the "miracles" themselves were enacted by the practitioners, from that inner strength, not by calling on Divine power.

From there, the GM can create Ruach Abilities like Walk on Water, Strength of Samson, and Heal Disease. (Of course, some reported miracles fit the idea more easily than others. Unleash Plagues is a little hard to envision as a chi-like power.)

2) The (great) book Slayers grants demon/undead/mage slayers powers similar to those of holy warriors and clerics, but without a divine power source, or any external power source. The abilities stem from internal "force of will" – but it's not chi or psi, and doesn't carry the limitations of those.

But maybe the gameworld philosophers disagree, and posit that the source is chi/ruach/pneuma/etc. The difference with slayers is that this source appears for reasons of its own (as briefly described in the book), rather than being granted like Power Investiture or developed like chi; thus, no limitations involving vows or special exercises, and no need for a trait like Ruach Talent.

In other words, slayers' powers work just as described in the book, and any connection to a chi-like power source is purely a matter of background color, not mechanics. But it's interesting IMO to imagine that slayers might share this source with martial artists, even if it manifests quite differently.
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Old 07-26-2022, 09:36 PM   #35
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
Dungeon Fantasy Martial Artists are a bit of an odd man out. The other "core" professions all have roots in fantasy fiction and RPGs primarily (if loosely) based off Medieval Europe.
The clerics come from more than 1400 years earlier. I actually introduced (martial arts) monks into the Dragonlance setting reasoning that they had appeared while the gods were on vacation, the monks teaching meditation and philosophy to fill the void, a religion that considered gods to be possibly existent, but irrelevant to the things that really mattered. I remember a fantasy novel where ninja-like martial artists created their skills as part of a revolutionary movement against a ruling class of "witches", using stealth to catch them off guard.

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Old 07-27-2022, 08:32 AM   #36
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

And don't forget the Irish Monks - after all those viking raids they added Anàil Beatha to their resumé. We all know how powerful Uisce Beatha is - just imagine Anàil...
Chi is cheesy, give me Anàil of Eireann!
Of course, a lot depends on how you pronounce it - might get a bit NSFW if your garlic is as bad as mine.
PS given that Uisce Beatha is pronounced whiskey baha; Samhain is sowain; ¿Anàil ≈ Ownail? (of iren). Maybe too drole...
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Old 07-27-2022, 09:04 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

From what I can tell, the way Martial Artists in DF function is that they maintain a special diet and do special daily exercises, and as a result have access to a variety of superhuman abilities. They also have access to the more advanced unarmed combat skills (Karate and Judo).

It occurs to me that an in-genre approach may be to have Chi be "scientific" in nature - after all, Karate (and Boxing) and Judo are often considered more scientific approaches to combat (as opposed to the more instinctive Brawling and Wrestling). In this case, careful regulation of diet and exercise grants one a state of more balanced humors than a normal person can achieve, unlocking true human potential, and allowing them - with appropriate practice - to do the sorts of things legendary heroes could achieve, like quelling a large number of foes with a single shout (Kiai), breaking a massive stone with a single strike (Shattering Blow), leaping over canyons (Flying Leap), running over thin ice or leaving no trail over soft mud (Light Walk), etc. Just give Chi a different name and fluff it up as being a consequence of supremely balanced humors, and there you go. As for the name, apparently "humor" is a translation of the Greek word χυμός, which is pronounced something like chi-mos... so in theory, you could actually still call it Chi, with the understanding this is short for χυμός (which, according to Wikipedia, literally means juice or sap, and is metaphorically used to mean flavor).

EDIT: I'm not sure what you'd actually call the class, however. Also, some of the more anime-inspired options that show up in later books/articles - like being able to throw chi blasts - may not be appropriate, but I think the mechanical core of the class as it was presented in DF1 would be maintained.
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Old 07-27-2022, 12:23 PM   #38
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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The modern "unarmored, often unarmed badass" martial artist is at least in part due to folks who had to fight when fighting equipment was restricted. So they don't use armor and specialize in weapons that are also tools and outright unarmed combat. A reputation for being outright supernatural doesn't hurt either.
This would typically imply a marginalized, conquered, or oppressed subculture, or a society with politically imposed restrictions on weapons use. For medieval Europe, that immediately calls to mind the Jews. A qabalah-based secret art (perhaps anachronistically modeled after Krav Maga) that was developed to protect Jewish communities from their persecutors would work. Plenty of room here for the "don't mess with the old man in rags" trope.

Something like a berserker, either Scandinavian or Celtic (e.g. Cu Chulain's riastrad), would also fit the bill. In this case, there would be a society of practitioners that survived into the medieval period, refining their "divine rage" into a powerful unarmed and -armored martial art with supernatural overtones.
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Old 07-28-2022, 12:34 AM   #39
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

There is one YouTuber who took a close look at the monk class in D&D 5e and realized that almost none of their abilities actually require them to act like Shaolin monks (look up full plate monk). The few "while wearing no armor and fighting unarmed or using a monk weapon" abilities are mostly focused on making monk weapons more useful, which he got around by just using an effective weapon that didn't need the mystic power up.
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Old 07-28-2022, 09:09 AM   #40
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Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Non-East Asian inspirations for Martial Artists (and Ninja)

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There is one YouTuber who took a close look at the monk class in D&D 5e and realized that almost none of their abilities actually require them to act like Shaolin monks (look up full plate monk). The few "while wearing no armor and fighting unarmed or using a monk weapon" abilities are mostly focused on making monk weapons more useful, which he got around by just using an effective weapon that didn't need the mystic power up.
That sounds like an error on the part of the designers, unless they specifically wanted to make "armored monk with a sword" a viable character option. While I never played as a Monk in 3.x, from looking at the class in the SRD, avoiding armor pays itself off rather effectively, at least if you opt for a high Wisdom (the monk bonus approximates wearing light armor, but lacks downsides such as armor check penalties or limiting the bonus you can get from Dexterity while also working even against touch attacks, can stack with Bracers of Armor unlike normal armor, and eventually results in an increased movement rate), and while monk weapons aren't great (1d6 and x2 crit), getting an additional attack (or 2 at higher levels) at only -2 to hit (relative to your maximum BAB, and this drops at higher levels, vanishing by level 9) is arguably worth it - particularly if you opt for dual-wielding, as this boosts the offhand weapon's damage to use your full Str bonus instead of half of it. Considering you'd likely have to give up 4 Feats to be able to wield a decent weapon and wear plate armor (grabbing either Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency, as well as Light, Medium, and Heavy Armor Proficiency; the first feat could be avoided if you're of a race that gets free proficiency in some weapon - like elves with Longswords - and opted to use said weapon), I'd say in 3.5 a Monk is best off staying unarmored and using Monk weapons.

Overanalysis ahead:
Spoiler:  



Of course, for DF, our Martial Artist (or whatever name is appropriate for a more-European-themed option) doesn't need to perfectly emulate the Monk of ToG, of any edition.
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