Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I'd think dragons should have eyelids and should be able to "block" by blinking.

Can you block something that can pierce your skin by "blinking"? Then the dragon either needs tougher eyelids, or something else going on for that idea.

Most have long flexible necks so they should be able to "dodge" just moving their head/necks.

That's already a completely valid way to interpret a Dodge.

Anyone with a bow becomes the prime target along with magic users since they also have ranged attacks and powerful magic.

Let me tell you the story of the time a green dragon made the mistake of announcing itself, then flying at our party while we were out in the open.

Now, it was used to caravans of quivering, fearful merchants who brought cattle or other gifts for it as payment for crossing it's prairies.

We, however hadn't actually spoken to anyone locally, so we had no idea about this arrangement.

It roared and began flying down towards us from it's lair in the distant mountains (like two miles off). I said, "Hey, DM, please let me know when it's in range for a fireball..."

A few in game minutes pass, GM says, "It's in range".

"I hold."
DM: "Okay..."
"OOC; so it's going to take about say, 6 rounds to get to fire-breathing range..." "Poison cloud, it's a green" "... right, anyway, about 6 rounds. I have 4 fireballs. I don't want it being able to flee when it realizes its error..."

Sure, "geek the Wizard first" is the trope classic for a reason, just make sure you're in range to does so, and not just in range to be disintegrated without being able to return fire.

Dragons also have magic...

Not always, but agreed. Baring sjmdw45's advice concerning SM and casting (which is advice that comes up frequently) I'd even allow them to just cast on themselves with "smaller areas", so Shield or Armor spell that only covers their head, or Return Missiles on their eyes, etc.

But, as sjmdw45 also points out, that won't help with anti-magic ammo.

Why aren't they doing things to blind the opposition with the ranged attacks?

They probably are. But remember this started by mentioning that T-Rexs weren't all that special when facing "Adventurer Level" PCs, because they are pretty good at rapid threat elimination.

For giants why not use shields? Why not use your arm to shield your eyes?

They can... but even with a shield that's not really "limiting them to attacks of opportunity", the giant still needs to succeed at their block. And even if the Scout has to declare Waits... you aren't removing their "if it has eyes, it dies" ability.

Unless the giant claps an arm over their eyes and fights blindly, which, yeah, sure I've built blind cave trolls and ogres this way for a reason.


Basically, if there is a good Scout in the party (or Swishypokler, or highly skilled anything poker), If It Has Eyes (or Vitals) It Dies. So... just go into fights expecting this and prepare.

And as Douglas said, sometimes "horde" is better than "One BBEG". The difference is in D&D there really isn't an easy way to bypass AC and then do tremendous amounts of bonus damage, GURPS there often is (unless you build for it not be easy or even existent). So be ready to see it.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Unless the giant claps an arm over their eyes and fights blindly, which, yeah, sure I've built blind cave trolls and ogres this way for a reason.


Basically, if there is a good Scout in the party (or Swishypokler, or highly skilled anything poker), If It Has Eyes (or Vitals) It Dies. So... just go into fights expecting this and prepare.

And there are lots of ways to prepare! I don't want to derail this thread, but some of the ways to give headaches to scouts include:

1.) Monsters with small size and/or high Dodge. Trying to eyeshot a Dodge 14 flying monster is an exercise in frustration, since bows can't Feint or Deceptive Attack. (You may need to get the wizard to cast Flight on a melee fighter instead.)

2.) As mentioned previously, monsters with protective magic, like dragons.

3.) Monsters that come in large numbers, like three giant brothers instead of just one.

4.) Monsters that don't have brains, like trolls, demons, or oozes.

5.) Monsters that are really fast, like Watchers at the Edge of Time, who can close with you and gut you (or cut up your longbow!) before you can beat their Dodge.

6.) Monsters that use trickery, camouflage, invisibility, etc. to prevent you from attacking them before they get in range.

7.) Monsters that burrow through the ground, like landsharks or Tremors graboids.

[Evanm]

Good to know. I suppose it is a similar situation to D&D 5e where in a theoretical scenario, a ranged sharpshooter could kite a big oaf forever, but I've still found ways of dealing with that so I'm sure I could learn to deal with eye-sniping. Still though, a character so good with his bow that he just runs around shooting creatures in their eyeballs to kill seems like a...quirk of GURPS to say the least.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Evanm

Good to know. I suppose it is a similar situation to D&D 5e where in a theoretical scenario, a ranged sharpshooter could kite a big oaf forever, but I've still found ways of dealing with that so I'm sure I could learn to deal with eye-sniping. Still though, a character so good with his bow that he just runs around shooting creatures in their eyeballs to kill seems like a...quirk of GURPS to say the least.

I actually view 5E's Sharpshooter -5/+10 through the headshot lens too.

The real difference IMO is that in DF a single headshot that lands usually takes out most characters or monsters, whereas killing e.g. a Goristro in 5E takes a dozen or so crossbow bolts to the head, in my interpretation of the rules at least. (And also the fact that in 5E the DM never responds, "the peshkali grins ghoulishly at you through the ruins of her head. The fact that the top half of her head is missing appears to discomfit her not at all." In DFRPG somewhere between 10% and 40% of the monsters are immune.)

This is a feature of DFRPG combat in general: more dodging or parrying because in many cases a single good hit can kill you. Attrition isn't really as much of a thing in GURPS/DFRPG. How you feel about DF may depend to a large degree on how you feel about attrition-based gameplay.

P.S. A good fictional example of a habitual headshotter is Kincaid from the Dresden Files.

Originally Posted by Microfiction #3

“In the chest, Kincaid,” Ivy said.

If you’re shooting at someone, you’ve already decided to kill him. There’s no reason to shoot him anywhere other than the head, if you can. And I can.

She took a step toward me, maybe ninety pounds of furious, tearful eyes and newly-filled-out lips pulled away from a snarl. “In the chest. Or face me.”

I thought about asking her why. But in the end, it didn’t really matter.

[Evanm]

Yeah I also interpret Great Weapon Master in that way too. A massive, skull-splitting blow.

Also thanks for the info. I'm not married to attrition-based gameplay, but I have to admit I don't have much experience outside of it besides Call of Cthulhu and Delta Green, which aren't really games that encourage combat. I'm eyeing DFRPG simply because I still like "Dungeon Fantasy", I just want to try a different way of playing it.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Evanm

Still though, a character so good with his bow that he just runs around shooting creatures in their eyeballs to kill seems like a...quirk of GURPS to say the least.

It's less a quirck of GURPS in general than DF/RPG† specifically.

Since DF/RPG has PCs starting in the (as sjmdw45 suggests) roughly 5th-10th level range of D&D, just when the crazy heroics start to really come out.

DF/RPG is really sneakily an Action game being run in a fantasy setting where the ideals of "Back To The Dungeon" and "Orc and Pie" have been given a lot of free reign. You can certainly run high high-powered social fantasy in it too, but that takes a leetle more work, and DF/RPG works fine for hexcrawls (ironically better as there are professions deliberately tailored to it), and runs great in basically any D&D style you can imagine.

DF/RPG Conan is even easily doable, if you hack away a few professions and just give PCs time to heal naturally...



† I like to hyphenate GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and Dungeon Fantasy Roleplaying Game Powered by GURPS as DF/RPG, because they are slightly separate beasts, they are really the same thing with a few simplifications on the DFRPG side.

Originally Posted by Evanm

I'm eyeing DFRPG simply because I still like "Dungeon Fantasy", I just want to try a different way of playing it.

Combat is going to be a very different and yet very familiar beast to D&D. It'll feel radically different for a while, but you'll start to see parallels and symmetry, and eventually you'll be able to run DF/RPG just as easily, or (for me these days‡) more so than D&D.


‡ Especially since 3e started with the idea of "making sure all encounters are balanced"... that's not the D&D I grew up with, and that takes waaaaaay more work than I want to put into GMing a game.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

P.S. A good fictional example of a habitual headshotter is Kincaid from the Dresden Files.

I was just rereading those microfictions and short-stories last night. Never did like Kincaid... until that microfiction.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Evanm

Also thanks for the info. I'm not married to attrition-based gameplay, but I have to admit I don't have much experience outside of it besides Call of Cthulhu and Delta Green, which aren't really games that encourage combat. I'm eyeing DFRPG simply because I still like "Dungeon Fantasy", I just want to try a different way of playing it.

It still feels very much like Dungeon Fantasy, and my evidence for that is that every single D&D novel I have ever read from the Prism Pentad to Starlit Night uses the non-attritional model, same as DFRPG. Dramatic tension comes primarily from running up against something tougher than you or running out of luck, not from meeting something weaker than you when you're already cut to bits from fighting so many mooks.

Ditto the recent D&D: Honor Among Thieves movie. Holga doesn't take dozens of wounds in the movie; she dodges and parries and jiujitsus until eventually... she doesn't.

I had plans to do a Film Reroll of that movie with some friends (same scenario, in DFRPG, but maybe a different outcome). Unfortunately we couldn't find a schedule that worked for everybody and then eventually I lost interest. I can share my writeups for Holga and Dorris if you're interested.

The point is, I think you'll like non-attritional play. It's very natural.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

I was just rereading those microfictions and short-stories last night. Never did like Kincaid... until that microfiction.

It's very moving, isn't it?

I started liking Kincaid here:

Originally Posted by Small Favor

“No claymores here,” Kincaid said. “Should have had claymores.” He shook his head and blinked his eyes a couple of times, trying to focus them. “Dresden, not much time. The girl. They got out with her. She’s alive.”

I grimaced and looked away.

His bloody hand shot out and seized the front of my coat. “Look at me.”

I did.

I expected rage, hate, and blame. All I got was a look of…just, desperate, desperate fear.

“Go after them. Bring her back. Save her.”

"Kincaid…” I said softly.

“Swear it,” he said. His eyes went out of focus for a second, then glittered coldly. “Swear it. Or I’m coming for you. Swear it to me, Dresden.”

"I’m too ------ tired to be scared of you,” I said.

Kincaid closed his eyes. “She doesn’t have anybody else. No one.”

That section always makes me tear up. Poor kid. Poor Kincaid. I can't help liking a man who cares so much about a friendless little girl.

P.S. Aha! Kincaid just ran straight into this rule for Intimidation: "-3 if your goal is to request aid." I guess it's probably still his best influence skill. :-P

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

The point is, I think you'll like non-attritional play. It's very natural.

The actual way most fiction works is by, essentially, dramatic attrition: a significant character usually has to suffer a certain number of dramatic setbacks before being taken out. That doesn't apply to mooks. Now, dramatic setbacks are rarely as bland as hit point loss, though for giant monsters it sometimes really is a wound.

To some degree you can do this in GURPS with plot-tweak powers like luck and serendipity, or by spending xp (or equivalent story points or whatever) for impulse buys, but it's somewhat prone to turning an already somewhat slow combat system into a complete slog.