Question About Smoke/Paint and Helicopter Targeting

[helbent4]

Hello,

I seem to recall that while smoke and paint do not normally completely block LOS, there is a point where if there is enough smoke or paint LOS is blocked. Something like if there is greater than a -4 penalty? I seem to remember this from somewhere, like an AADQ errata, but can't recall where.

As well, in CWC 2.5 page 49 in the Helicopter Combat section "Arcs of Fire" 1st paragraph it says:

"In combat, a helicopter may target anything within its arc of fire. It may be targeted by an attacker who is within the theoretical line of fire of one of its sides, and on that side only. In other words, if a helicopter can target a vehicle with its right side, the target vehicle can fire upon the helicopter’s right side in return. If the helicopter can target with both its underside and left side, the target may return fire upon both underside and left side, as it chooses."

The plain language reading of this means that targeting is strictly reciprocal in that you can only target the helicopter's facing that is closest to you (i.e. . you are within that arc) and vice versa (unless you are on the dividing line). This is unlike car targeting where (say) even if you are in the front arc of a target vehicle you can still choose to target the side (at a penalty). So to confirm, targeting of a helicopter is strictly reciprocal in that you can only target a facing that can target you, and no other facing even if it is visible at an off-angle? As well, while a vehicle facing a helicopter that is in turn facing it could target that helicopter's front from within the front arc of fire (but no other side) a helicopter could still fire at that ground vehicle's front, sides or top (etc.) from a front-mounted weapon as long as it has LOS to it.

Tony

[swordtart]

I couldn't find anything in my search of ADQ&A regarding LOS blocking with paint/smoke. It may predate the rules revision where paint/smoke produced -1 per 1/2" (as apposed to -2 per counter). There was a specific rule about IR targeting scopes not being able to penetrate at all but this is just clarification of the effects of IR and paint.

However in at least one scenario a line of smoke or paint across a road is stated to prevent you seeing what is happening on the other side (part of a trap when chasing a motorcycle if memory serves). This is obviously a plot device rather than a formal rule and so could be explained as a special formulation of paint. It was also stated in the CWRQ that smoke/paint concealed mines, so there is precedent for paint/smoke blocking LOS.

CW Tanks under spotting rules on P37 however states:

... -2 per 1/2"of smoke/paint/ concealment. Targets behind 2" or more of concealment, smoke or paint cannot be spotted.

Noting that spotting suffers a greater penalty from paint than targeting, on the basis of the above it would need -8 to block LOS. Of course CW Tanks is at variance with the current rule set in a number of areas.


Wrt. the targeting helicopter rule, firstly, thank you for so clearly signposting the rules you have in question. This makes it far easier to investigate.

While it initially appears that the rules for helicopters are more restrictive than for cars, on investigation I found the following on P38 in CWC 2.5:

A car has front, back, right, left, top and underbody “sides.” When you fire at a vehicle, you can only hit a side that is facing you.

The bold is my emphasis, not the rules themselves. It carries the same sense as the helicopter statement you quote (which is the same wording as earlier editions e.g. B&W Delux), and noting that we get slight variation in wording between writers of the different supplements I believe that it means the same. Ordinarily you can target only the side facing you.

The car targeting section explicitly mentions out of arc targeting, but no other vehicle section mentions it and I assume this is for brevity rather than implying out of arc targeting is only possible on cars.

[Magesmiley]

As to seeing through smoke, paint, or the like, I'd use a skill roll (gunner, handgunner, archery, etc., whichever is best) with mods for applicable equipment, smoke, target, a +5 general bonus and no penalty for not having base level in a skill.

[helbent4]

Hello,

Thanks for the replies!

Thanks for checking ADQ&A for me about smoke blocking LOS! I guess my recollection was a fever dream, as I skimmed over Tanks years ago but don't recall in any depth any rules. Accepting that Tanks is at variance with the rules, so to speak, the suggestion that 2" of smoke/paint blocks LOS would put it at anything -4 blocks LOS. Kind of a house rule to consider, along with suggestions on a spotting roll. There are other considerations, like how IR (thermal imaging) would still penetrate most smoke much like an infrared laser. (Somewhere there is a distinction made between normal and "hot" smoke, which would make a difference.)

In Convoy (both the version in ADQ 1-1 and the stand-alone solo adventure) there is a paint trap as you describe. What are concealed on the road past the stationary paint sprayers are mines. Mines and other dropped weapons are concealed under smoke and paint (etc.) I guess for dramatic purposes mines laid beyond the paint would therefore also be concealed, which is not much of a stretch!

As for helicopters, quoting the rule was my pleasure. I'd say it's reasonable to treat out-of-arc targeting for helos the same as cars even if the wording and examples seem to imply it must be reciprocal (you can only target a side from within its arc of fire). But it does seem silly that you can't target a location you can see, like with ground vehicles.

As a house rule, I'd allow targeting the rotor hub at -10. Damage goes to the rotors. Allowed only if at the same or higher altitude. As well, Helicopters pitch down when accelerating in level flight so targeting their top armour is again allowed if at the same or higher altitude. Additional maneuver: Fly Sideways. May be attempted at a speed of no more than 20 MPH. Same as Fly Backward but obviously to either side.

Tony

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by helbent4

But it does seem silly that you can't target a location you can see, like with ground vehicles.

Read the trike-targeting rules from _VG1_ sometime....

[Racer]

Side Question : What stats are you using for 3-D Dimensions for Stand Clouds , HD Clouds & Artillery/Bomb/Missile/Rocket produced Coulds , for use in 3-D Combat .

Big Mac has used a 4-D Graphic App with CWs counter representations to see exactly what & where on the Target can be hit by which Firing vehicles targeting arcs etc .

I'll have to ask him what graphic tool he used .