Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grappling

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Short version is using arms without hands can be treated with No Manipulators if that level of grit is required. I think - from memory - that is a -30% to trained st. That's basically -1 per die.

Interestingly, that looks to be the same both for No Fine Manipulators and for "Arms that do not have a hand, suction cups, gecko-hairs, or hooking claws – but enough of a grip to not qualify for No Fine Manipulators".

(No Manipulators necessarily precludes having limbs to grapple with.)

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Interestingly, that looks to be the same both for No Fine Manipulators and for "Arms that do not have a hand, suction cups, gecko-hairs, or hooking claws – but enough of a grip to not qualify for No Fine Manipulators".

(No Manipulators necessarily precludes having limbs to grapple with.)

Yeah, there's an erratum there I'm working w Steven on.

Specifically, drop "fine" and make it not enough to qualify for no Manipulators. I took there to be a continuum from NFM to NM to No Arms.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

whcih means an AoA(Determined)/Telegraphic attack would offset +5 to hit for a pseudo-melee "ranged" attack with a gun.

Shouldn't that be +8? Determined attack for melee weapons is +4 and so is Telegraphic attack.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Shouldn't that be +8? Determined attack for melee weapons is +4 and so is Telegraphic attack.

Yes, it should.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Yeah, there's an erratum there I'm working w Steven on.

Specifically, drop "fine" and make it not enough to qualify for no Manipulators. I took there to be a continuum from NFM to NM to No Arms.

Doesn't No Manipulators imply no arms and then some? As Technical Grappling implies, you can't make any limb strikes with No Manipulators, and can't leg grapple.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Doesn't No Manipulators imply no arms and then some? As Technical Grappling implies, you can't make any limb strikes with No Manipulators, and can't leg grapple.

Rereading, you're right. No Manipulators is many things, among which is shorthand for SNAKE.

No Fine Manipulators is -40% and has the 0.3xST instead of 0.5xST impact for an arm (or 0.6xST for a pair of arms).

No Grasping Hand seems to say, currently, that "yes, you can manipulate objects, perform repairs, and whatnot, but your grip is still just as bas as with No Fine Manipulators." It is also currently worth -40%.

I'll take this offline, and see what we see.