Grappled & Ranged Attacks: Martial Arts vs. Tactical Shooting vs. Technical Grappling

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

I'm seeing a threefold conflict on how ranged attacks are treated if the attacker is grappled. Basic Set is, of course, the simplest - it forbids ranged attacks entirely. Of course, Basic Set is assumed to be overriden by specialised rulebooks. Martial Arts seems content with the rule as-is (I haven't found a change in MA). Technical Grappling penalizes ranged attacks by the grappler's Trained ST (modified for relative ST of the victim), which basically means that only Ogre Slingers and fellas with over-the-top shooty skills can do a ranged attack while grappled. But then it turns out that Tactical Shooting allows ranged attacks out of a grapple - even if the weapon is grappled by winning a Quick Contest of DX or Retain Weapon against the grappler's DX, apparently without any extra penalty. Finally, maybe I missed something, but it seems that in TG, Retain Weapon can be used to regain weapon Grip ST, but the usage to resist the penalties to shoot while grappled is unaccounted for.

How do these get reconciled?

Thanks in advance!

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

How do these get reconciled?

Thanks in advance!

First: read the rule, and please quote it when you post these little tidbits, since you seem to have left out the key bit:

Originally Posted by Technical Grappling, p. 23

Aim or Concentrate
requires a Will roll at a penalty equal to your foe’s Trained ST,
modified for CP, maximum 0 – your CP may eliminate the
penalty but will never provide a bonus.

So the key is: GRAPPLE HIM BACK. If you can lower his Trained ST of his grapple, you can shoot better.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

First: read the rule, and please quote it when you post these little tidbits, since you seem to have left out the key bit:

So the key is: GRAPPLE HIM BACK. If you can lower his Trained ST of his grapple, you can shoot better.

Is the grapple back strategy even viable? Doing it with the arms will mean you can't do a ranged attack since now your arms are occupied; doing it with legs would give you a very uncomfortable posture, or even an outright fall; doing it with teeth is at ½ST and is difficult in terms of allowed targets (and thus penalties to grapple).

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Is the grapple back strategy even viable? Doing it with the arms will mean you can't do a ranged attack since now your arms are occupied;

Grapples are mutual in TG, so if you have your pistol and are grappled, you can attack to break free (to lower your own skill penalties) and attack to increase CP (to reduce his Trained ST). Rule Zero applies on this one, and bringing a pistol to bear should be possible. By TG-RAW, it IS possible to make ranged attacks.

doing it with legs would give you a very uncomfortable posture, or even an outright fall;

Falling may well be the goal. Guard is a pretty viable position to resist a foe's grapple.

[DouglasCole]

Also, remember that most GURPS assumes grapple = no use of ranged weapons AT ALL. So TG is generous by that stance. If you feel that the book didn't go far enough, fine - simply penalize all ranged attacks by a number equal to the total CP inflicted by all grapples on the foe.

We'd introduced enough detail (or complexity, if you will) that "just use your foe's Trained ST" was better than nothing. By and large, we assumed that some of that penalty would be offset by trying to shoot in close combat, whcih means an AoA(Determined)/Telegraphic attack would offset +5 to hit for a pseudo-melee "ranged" attack with a gun. Shooting a foe in a controlled manner at 25yds while also grappled? I'm comfortable with "no frackin' way" in this case.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Also, remember that most GURPS assumes grapple = no use of ranged weapons AT ALL. So TG is generous by that stance. If you feel that the book didn't go far enough, fine - simply penalize all ranged attacks by a number equal to the total CP inflicted by all grapples on the foe.

Oh, I don't think TG is not generous enough. I don't know precisely where the most reasonable 'enough' lies. I'm just seeing that grappled ranged attacks are treated rather differently between B/MA, TS, and TG, and I wonder how they can be reconciled.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

We'd introduced enough detail (or complexity, if you will) that "just use your foe's Trained ST" was better than nothing. By and large, we assumed that some of that penalty would be offset by trying to shoot in close combat, whcih means an AoA(Determined)/Telegraphic attack would offset +5 to hit for a pseudo-melee "ranged" attack with a gun. Shooting a foe in a controlled manner at 25yds while also grappled? I'm comfortable with "no frackin' way" in this case.

Actually, it would offset +8, since in Reach C/C,1 (depending on whether using a pistol or a rifle), ranged attacks get +4 from AoA (Determined). But there's also Bulk, and -4 for being grappled (B/MA/TS) or the variable penalty from TG.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

whcih means an AoA(Determined)/Telegraphic attack would offset +5 to hit for a pseudo-melee "ranged" attack with a gun.

Shouldn't that be +8? Determined attack for melee weapons is +4 and so is Telegraphic attack.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Grapples are mutual in TG, so if you have your pistol and are grappled, you can attack to break free (to lower your own skill penalties) and attack to increase CP (to reduce his Trained ST). Rule Zero applies on this one, and bringing a pistol to bear should be possible. By TG-RAW, it IS possible to make ranged attacks.

Grapples are mutual, but what are you attacking with to increase CP? If you've got a pistol, sure, you can free a hand. But if you're trying to hold on to a carbine, you don't have any hands to use. I imagine you might still be able to use both arms in an attempt to break free despite this (especially if the grapple is of your arms or your gun), but could you really use them to get CP on your attacker?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Grapples are mutual, but what are you attacking with to increase CP? If you've got a pistol, sure, you can free a hand. But if you're trying to hold on to a carbine, you don't have any hands to use. I imagine you might still be able to use both arms in an attempt to break free despite this (especially if the grapple is of your arms or your gun), but could you really use them to get CP on your attacker?

Short version is using arms without hands can be treated with No Manipulators if that level of grit is required. I think - from memory - that is a -30% to trained st. That's basically -1 per die.