[Magic] Great Balls of Fire (that can't hit anything)

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Allow me to ask the stupid question: Have you talked with your GM about this?

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

A 12 DX isn't "a bit precise and quick on their feet"?

A stat that's been bought up to 12 isn't a dump stat. It's quite adequate in most games. Getting your Innate Attack skill up to 14 then costs a whole 4 points - hardly a heavy investment.

If you want it even higher than that, because you just can't bear the idea of missing with your fireballs even when shooting at serious ranges - well, you're playing a notably combat-obsessed wizard. Dropping more points into a combat skill is hardly unreasonable. But you're going to hit worse problems than having to buy that skill up a bit; you're pumping FP into those fireballs, which will wear you down rapidly, while the fighter types who are relying on boring old bows and stuff can keep going for hours.

Wizards aren't fighters. Trying to play at being fighters is a losing game for them in GURPS. Fortunately, there's other stuff they can do. Lots of other stuff.

Originally Posted by Dragyn

Or perhaps Missile spells are really for those twits that know better than to get within a couple of yards of a hostile opponent, and would really prefer to deal with the bad guys outside of potential melee range.

All the spells you quote are regular spells with the exception of Panic (which I think is Area), and therefore at a penaly of -1 per yard of range to cast, even before they are resisted.

Well, minimaxed GURPS wizards tend to have all their spells at 15+ anyway, and taking a real favourite a bit higher is hardly unusual. As a lot of fantasy-game combats take place in scary confined spaces, in my experience, and as any wizard character who wants to survive should make damn sure that there's a meat shield or three between himself and the hostiles, the chance of getting one or two of those spells through per fight should be pretty good.

Standard Basic-Set GURPS doesn't make it easy to play a wizard sniper, to be sure. But I'd suggest that in that sort of game you want a meat shield with a heavy crossbow, while the wizard uses information spells to set things up to perfection.

Originally Posted by Dragyn

Easily handled by Incompetence, or even by GM Fiat: "The evil wizard will not kill you because then the game would be over."

GURPS is rather a simulationist game at heart. Having to invoke GM fiat to emulate a commonplace genre trope is deprecated.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire

Allow me to ask the stupid question: Have you talked with your GM about this?

My GM said that he didn't want a houserule. I have a rule that is not a houserule.

Continuing discussion seems to revolve around why I shouldn't want to do what I want to do in the first place.. That it is unreasonable of me to expect a mage to be able to hit with his offensive ranged spells. Go figure.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

I'm not talking DF.. I haven't been. I'm talking about a mage that has a spell he'd like to be more effective than a light show. In my example, I quoted DX 12 for two reasons. One is that it is the default DX for a DF wizard, but the other is because it is the DX of a character I'm playing and experiencing this issue with.

My character is using the Ritual Magic system from Thaumatology p72, and so is very much a generalist. He also poses little threat to any enemy outside of short range.

Sorry hadn't seen you posted before I posted again. And sorry, I thought you did talk about DF because you seemed to mention it and talk about the DX:12 as an unnecessary requirement (which to me implied DF templates being used).

So yes, ok, forget about DF and lets go back to look at your original problem (as I understand it, and me paraphrasing).

1) "it doesn't make sense that a mage should spend so many hours practising the act of hitting with a spell".

2) "hitting with a spell should be mental, not physical, or at the very least influence d by magical capabilities".

3) "a mage should be able to do more".

----

1) I don't agree with this assumption. First off nowhere in the chapter about skills does it indicate that X amount of points in a skill= Y time spend training that skill. Points in a skill can represent innate ability just as much as training and experience. I am aware of the rules for Improvement through study but that doesn't mean the other is true.
So having 16 pts in Innate attack simply means the wizard is really good at hitting stuff with magical spells. It doesn't mean anything else. Point-value are at best an abstract notion and doesn't really translate into anything ingame. Ie. you don't have to worry about it, if you want him to be good at it, you do not have to reason why.
But even if you do make this assumption then IMO it makes perfectly sense that the wizard should spend so much time practising. After all wanting a skill of 15 is wanting a skill at expert level. The mage want to be battle ready. And just like any other soldier he needs to train. It's no different from a modern soldier training to hit with his rifle. A soldiers job is a lot more than hitting target just as a mage's is, but if he want to be good at that aspect, he need to train it.


2) This one I get but that simply isn't how GURPS sees things. The obvious reason is that the skill is a DX skill and not an IQ skill. But you can also see it in the way missile spells work. A lightning bolt isn't "lightning shoots from the fingers" and a firebolt doesn't shoot "from the hand". No, the magic missile-spells materialise an object held in your hand that can be enlarged, dropped accidental or thrown physically. This is how the old basic magic system is set up. That's also why you can aim it, why lightning bolt has a better Acc than firebolt and why, as mentioned, you can drop it accidental onto your feet.
I can understand a want to have it be a mental exercise and noone is stopping you from changing innate attack to an IQ-based skill. I am just explaining why, as it is, it is a DX-skill. Also note that the books say that "DX-based skills rely on coordination, reflexes, and steady hands". Which to me sounds like the right fit for "hitting with spells".


3) OK ritual magic is even more generalistic than the normal magic system. So I think my original point still holds. You want to be both a generalist and a blaster without paying for both. If all the mage does is put on a good light show then it sounds like he only have Continual light as a spell. What is he doing since you feel he isn't doing something wothwhile? After all, most of the spells doesn't require you to hit with them. Direct damage spells are really the most crude and simple way a mage can affect a battle IMO.

And btw. regarding PM and Magery. Magery already acts as a power-talent as it gives a +1 TO ALL SPELLS! And no, spells might not get a -10% discount for being magical, but then, they are so dirt-cheap anyway, costing only 1 point for a whole new power!
As I said above you could change it so Magery also adds to the to hit but IMO it's unbalancing because Magery already helps so much for magic missiles. First it allow them to cast the spell itself better, then it helps to reduce the FP cost of it and finally it increase the maximum damage of the spell. So also wanting it to help with hitting the target for a simply 10 pts advantage seems to me to be a bit much. Its like requiring that ST also help you hit with a sword.

So just to repeat myself once again. I understand where your coming from, wanting magery and IQ to play a role in hitting with magical spells, but the way GURSP is set up I think it would be unbalancing to allow that.

[PseudoFenton]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

That it is unreasonable of me to expect a mage to be able to hit with his offensive ranged spells.

I think the discussion is more aimed at how its unreasonable to expect a mage to be able to excel at physical tasks which involve magic, just because it involves magic.

Its not that its unreasonable for a mage to hit with their offensive spells, but more than its more reasonable for a skilled or dexterous (or both) mage to find it easier than one who's only ever read books and happens to be particularly gifted at casting spells. Due to the nature of missile spells needing to be thrown it relies on physical traits and is no longer in the domain of just needing to successfully casting the spell.

Its like complaining a mage needs disproportionately high ST (for a 'mage') to be able to carry all their books and wear armour because magery is hindered by encumbrance and requires grimoires. Although you'd be right that high ST is required to perform that, the system is purposefully designed so that you have to invest in those things if you want to excel at the things the system doesn't deem innate to just casting. Basic GURPS just assumes that wizards are not snipers nor blasters and shouldn't be casting spells like that without tailoring themselves to those ends - nothing stops you doing it, but its not a free meal ticket to do so.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

A stat that's been bought up to 12 isn't a dump stat. It's quite adequate in most games. Getting your Innate Attack skill up to 14 then costs a whole 4 points - hardly a heavy investment.

The character in question has IA at level 13, Dex 12, for the specific reason that I couldn't scrape much more points out without sacrificing what I felt were important non-combat abilities/spells.

If you want it even higher than that, because you just can't bear the idea of missing with your fireballs even when shooting at serious ranges - well, you're playing a notably combat-obsessed wizard. Dropping more points into a combat skill is hardly unreasonable. But you're going to hit worse problems than having to buy that skill up a bit; you're pumping FP into those fireballs, which will wear you down rapidly, while the fighter types who are relying on boring old bows and stuff can keep going for hours.

To which end I purchased an Energy reserve, though for most purposes intended it will be to allow me to cast single, more expensive spells without wearing myself out, such as Shapeshifting, or Hawk Flight, and maintain them for a bit without crashing too horribly.

As the character has been transported to another world, in which the rules of magic seem to be different (I suspect threshold magic, but have not confirmed), I've so far been very fickle. But I find myself in a situation which could greatly benefit from the application of well placed fireballs at a range of 17 yards. With a skill of 13, and a penalty of -6 for range, and an Acc of 1, I'm feeling a little useless as the party's best chance of dealing with the threat quickly.

Wizards aren't fighters. Trying to play at being fighters is a losing game for them in GURPS. Fortunately, there's other stuff they can do. Lots of other stuff.

Very true. And he's not trying to be a fighter. He's trying to be a mage that has access to missile spells.

Well, minimaxed GURPS wizards tend to have all their spells at 15+ anyway, and taking a real favourite a bit higher is hardly unusual. As a lot of fantasy-game combats take place in scary confined spaces, in my experience, and as any wizard character who wants to survive should make damn sure that there's a meat shield or three between himself and the hostiles, the chance of getting one or two of those spells through per fight should be pretty good.

Right.. sacrifice the comrades. Got it.

Add to that, that I'm not using normal spell magic, and you have a problem. I can't simply raise my favorite spell to 20 because it's all off of techniques, using Ritual Magic. If I find myself within short range of a hostile, then perhaps a regular spell will be worth trying. At range, however, I'm beginning to look less like a threat and more like a potential pincussion.

Standard Basic-Set GURPS doesn't make it easy to play a wizard sniper, to be sure. But I'd suggest that in that sort of game you want a meat shield with a heavy crossbow, while the wizard uses information spells to set things up to perfection.

Not really looking to be the party sniper. Just to be effective.

GURPS is rather a simulationist game at heart. Having to invoke GM fiat to emulate a commonplace genre trope is deprecated.

Which is why I suggested the Incompetence quirk, B164. That's not Fiat. That's RAW.

[Maz]

Wow this thread moves fast and I write slow (and too much).

Originally Posted by Dragyn

My GM said that he didn't want a houserule. I have a rule that is not a houserule.

Continuing discussion seems to revolve around why I shouldn't want to do what I want to do in the first place.. That it is unreasonable of me to expect a mage to be able to hit with his offensive ranged spells. Go figure.

It sucks our GM wont even consider a houserule :(

It's not unreasonable to expect a mage to hit with magical spells, but it is a bit unreasonable to expect him to be good at everything without paying the points for it.
As others have pointed out, the GURPS Magic system simply isn't built for modern Computer-game or D&D inspired mages. The GURPS magic system is much more for the subtle mage, the magic of Gandalf, Morgana, Merlin and Queen Bavmorda. The magic of the 70's and 80's.
The idea of blaster-mages is newer and not something GURPS Magic is suitable for because that's not what it was designed for. That's where Power-based magic is appropriate. So, wanting to be a blaster-mage in a system not designed for it, isn't easy. It require you design your character around it.

Personally I suggest you buy the Jet-spells, as they are Regular, not Magic Missile spells.

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

I think the discussion is more aimed at how its unreasonable to expect a mage to be able to excel at physical tasks which involve magic, just because it involves magic.

Its not that its unreasonable for a mage to hit with their offensive spells, but more than its more reasonable for a skilled or dexterous (or both) mage to find it easier than one who's only ever read books and happens to be particularly gifted at casting spells. Due to the nature of missile spells needing to be thrown it relies on physical traits and is no longer in the domain of just needing to successfully casting the spell.

Its like complaining a mage needs disproportionately high ST (for a 'mage') to be able to carry all their books and wear armour because magery is hindered by encumbrance and requires grimoires. Although you'd be right that high ST is required to perform that, the system is purposefully designed so that you have to invest in those things if you want to excel at the things the system doesn't deem innate to just casting. Basic GURPS just assumes that wizards are not snipers nor blasters and shouldn't be casting spells like that without tailoring themselves to those ends - nothing stops you doing it, but its not a free meal ticket to do so.

The description of the Innate Attack skill seems to define the action required as a gesture, not a 'throw'. Otherwise, your hand would have to be empty as well as 'free'. Tell me how that does not include a mental aspect?

Is is like leaning to the side and twisting your arm when you're watching a bowling ball roll down the lane? Looks funny but means nothing?

[Dragyn]

Originally Posted by Maz

Wow this thread moves fast and I write slow (and too much).

It sucks our GM wont even consider a houserule :(

It's not unreasonable to expect a mage to hit with magical spells, but it is a bit unreasonable to expect him to be good at everything without paying the points for it.
As others have pointed out, the GURPS Magic system simply isn't built for modern Computer-game or D&D inspired mages. The GURPS magic system is much more for the subtle mage, the magic of Gandalf, Morgana, Merlin and Queen Bavmorda. The magic of the 70's and 80's.
The idea of blaster-mages is newer and not something GURPS Magic is suitable for because that's not what it was designed for. That's where Power-based magic is appropriate. So, wanting to be a blaster-mage in a system not designed for it, isn't easy. It require you design your character around it.

Personally I suggest you buy the Jet-spells, as they are Regular, not Magic Missile spells.

No.. He did consider it, and chose to avoid it. He wanted an official rule, and I found one that will serve.

And please understand.. I haven't been looking for a Blaster Mage.. I've been looking for a way to be effective in the role I've found myself in.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Dragyn

Is is like leaning to the side and twisting your arm when you're watching a bowling ball roll down the lane? Looks funny but means nothing?

Actually, I think it's more like firing a pistol, except the hand position might be different. Or Pyro in the second X-Men movie.