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Old 04-16-2021, 09:38 AM   #31
Stormcrow
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m

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Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
Of course you might run into naieve or Greedy employees who take the money regardless of the obvious real demands of the job... and then split when the going gets tough.
In which case the NPC's loyalty result is determined by the GM, and this always overrides anything on the reaction table.
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Old 04-17-2021, 01:29 AM   #32
Tiger
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m

Part of the issue is not just loyalty but what that makes the person willing to do. I'd estimate that most modem people have a lot of disadvantages such as pacifism, cowardice, aversion to danger and so forth that would make most people useless in a fight (if two people at McDonald's start shooting at each other 99% chance everyone else just freezes or runs).

Beyond that it's just the normal problem of GURPS resolution being to coarse, in many circumstances, to account for variety, ie I real life it's possible to be shot 33 times by a .357 magnum at close range and not only live but suffer no permanent debilitating effects. The dice in GURPS do not allow that. Likewise, real people have priorities and subjective experiences, not a table of Utils where they compare their Loyalty to a chart of possible actions. Any time you approach the limit of statistical regularity (ie IQ 16) things can get very silly. GURPS had fairly plausible statistical outcomes but the borders of the bell curve can't be 'fixed'. Of you redesigned GURPS around d20s you could get a lot more specific with bonuses but most people already think GURPS has too many numbers.

Last edited by Tiger; 04-17-2021 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 04-19-2021, 05:39 AM   #33
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m

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Beyond that it's just the normal problem of GURPS resolution being to coarse, in many circumstances, to account for variety, ie I real life it's possible to be shot 33 times by a .357 magnum at close range and not only live but suffer no permanent debilitating effects. The dice in GURPS do not allow that.
Of course, there are houserules - and official, optional rules - that address the case of surviving large numbers of gunshot wounds to non-lethal locations (Last Wounds is one, although I prefer Conditional Injury for this, and I also like the houserule I've seen before about randomizing the blowthrough cap, to represent the difference between hitting someone in the love handles and somewhere more important, where minimum damage just doesn't suffice), so one certainly could expand the loyalty/reaction system to allow for such nuances. Perhaps modify it to be "roll low" like much of the rest of GURPS while you're at it (but then, I'm a fan of making everything in GURPS "roll low," even damage, but that last bit is difficult to work out the nuances of).
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Old 04-19-2021, 12:10 PM   #34
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
Would you worship your employer or his cause? Would you be willing to die for him? That's what the reaction table says you'd do if you got double your paycheck, and you wouldn't even get a roll to avoid doing it.

The 1 per 10% and the worship and willing to die rules have been around at least since the third-edition days (Basic Set, p. B204–5). I wonder if it's been noticed before.
Would I be willing to throw myself into a volcano for double minimum wage? No chance.

Would I be gravely ill in a hospital and be stressed out about my job? Would I come in to work before my doctor advised me to? Would I work around carcinogenics or other toxins that will shorten my life? Would I operate machinery that could kill my or others without proper training or correct safety guidelines. **** I do that stuff for regular pay.

Would I be willing to take a bullet for my employer or even risk being completely destroyed for double pay? There are armies in active war zones who's infantry soldiers are under fire every week who earn less than a Burger King Employee. So would everyone take that risk? No, that's crazy. But someone would.

Would I grovel at the feet of the guy paying me double $5 to mow his lawn. Man, I'd barely flip him off for that kind of money.

Would I eulogize Bill Gates or Elon Musk if I was making double normal wages for my White Collar job and that kind of worship was part of the corporate culture. I think most people in those corporate environments do worship their employer. I might even build a little shrine to my boss at my desk and would probably pursue whatever nutty philosophy they espouse. It is TWICE what I should make.

You can't help how you feel about things if your an NPC on a really great reaction roll but you're not divorced from logic or your own priorities or your sense of self-preservation. You're going to do some stuff you're not proud of for double pay, maybe even feel a sense of undeserved gratitude, but ultimately you're not going to do anything you probably wouldn't do for money no matter how good the roll is.

Last edited by Black Leviathan; 04-19-2021 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 04-19-2021, 12:29 PM   #35
Black Leviathan
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m

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So let's say you hire a blacksmith to maintain your party's weapons and armor all month while they do the dungeoneering. Normally, he would have neutral loyalty (10), but you pay him double the normal rate, giving him excellent loyalty (20). "The NPC worships the PCs or their cause, works incredibly hard, puts the PCs' interests ahead of his own at all times, and would even die for them."

So the PCs' cause is going down into dungeons and getting their weapons and armor all dinged up, and the blacksmith wholeheartedly encourages them in their endeavors. He spends all day with their stuff and honestly does the very best job he can for them.
Think of it more this way:
Your party has been doing business with a blacksmith in the city and they regularly pay for rush work because they are laden with gold and have to get back into the fight. He loves seeing you guys coming because he knows he will work through the night and can take the rest of the week off with his family. He kicks other customers out when you walk in because **** those guys.
You know that there's a tomb you need seal shut, but you're not blacksmith. You want to hire him to go down into the tomb with your party to do the work he does for you where he might die. Everyone in this town has heard about your bringing your fallen comrade to the temple as a bag of ashes to see if they could be resurrected. He obviously tells you "no". He has a family and if you can't take it, there will be plenty of other adventurers who want to pay him for rush work after you die.
But the blacksmith down the street is about to lose his shop and his wife has already left him. He's got good armor and he likes his odds. He's desperate for cash and he will bend over backwards to do that job at two full days of double pay in advance. And if he makes it out alive with your party, he might do it again even if he doesn't need the money as desperately, because you guys saved his business and looked out for him in the dungeon.

Paying double doesn't eliminate the will of any NPC, but it will make some NPC willing and extraordinarily loyal.
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Old 04-19-2021, 09:29 PM   #36
Hyrneson
 
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Default Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m

While I use the rules I don't let players abuse the rules.
A common axiom is that an employee's loyalty is like eating a crap sandwich. The more bread involved, the more crap someone will eat.
In the general that may be true but there is also the truism in business that people don't quit jobs, they quit people.
Also, that recognition is very often more motivating than money.

So yes, players can double the blacksmith's pay (using the above blacksmith), but what does that really mean to the smith? Is he getting appropriate compensation for the result being achieved? And how long until the smith starts deciding that his newfound wealth from his benefactors lets him work himself out of the scenario. A common man could live really well on the profit of some relatively minor magic item's market value.

BUT what if in addition to the cash the character puts the smith in for a royal certification of his shop? What if he makes sure to let the local guard captain know the smith is a quality craftsman and gets business pushed his way? What if the character gets the smith a set of very fine tools or offers to expand the smith's forge or arranged for quality ingots to become available to him? Or gives the smith an additional amount to take on some apprentices?

This is not just a salary relationship but and investment into the smith, his craft, and the relationship. That's going to play better and be more realistic.

Do I think the smith will stand in the face of a hoard of orcs so the character can run? Nope, but he might arrange other opportunities that the character didn't have before.

If you need rules codifying this I think the closest would be from GURPS Social Engineering, 'Keeping in Contact'.

DISCLAIMER: Run your table the way you like. Me, I still use the rule from the D&D DMG that says the rules are a suggestion and the GM rules.
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Old 04-20-2021, 12:20 AM   #37
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Default Re: [Social Engineering / Basic Set] Doubling hireling pay increases loyalty by too m

This is definitely me attacking the symptom and not the problem, but I feel like a simple fix would be "money can't buy perfect loyalty". The modifier from money can't be enough to go past Very Good.
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