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Old 11-11-2014, 11:30 AM   #21
roguebfl
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
You're missing the direction of the arrow. I'm really saying "Fast-Draw at 16+ is a prerequisite for this advantage" – I'm acknowledging that no serious user will actually need the halved penalties clause. However, as Gunslinger, Heroic Archer, Trained by a Master, and Weapon Master (and indeed Gadgeteer and lots of other cinematic advantages) do not have skill prerequisites, it's more consistent to leave that off. Which means that there has to be some kind of handling for low or no Fast-Draw skill.

My advantage definition aims to solve two problems:
  1. Reduce the penalties for lots of ranged attacks to the point where it's a viable option to throw lots of weapons.
  2. Halve the amount of dice-rolling by removing nuisance rolls that may well make lots of attacks impossible if failed.
It improves game flow to do it this way, which I deem critical for the sorts of games that feature cinematic ninja and the like. If you prefer, change:
Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you still have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at effective level of 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
to:
You automatically succeed at Fast-Draw rolls for throwing weapons.
And add:
Prerequisite: Fast-Draw (any thrown weapon) at 16+.
That could be 18+, 20+, or whatever if you prefer. But not rolling is simply better than rolling lots at complicated penalties.
my point is I do like
Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you still have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at effective level of 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
as that actually does meat my dentition of high skill.
And adding the reverent to it it point out something I missed it actually helps with throwing outside your speciality such as Master Hatchet thrower tries to use throwing knives.

I we objecting to to use base skill, which would indeed be better written skill prerequisite 8)

Edit: ahh here why I missed the idea for Relevant, Fast draw doesn't have a default.
Perhaps that somthing Master Thrower could do, give Fast-draw a default.
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Last edited by roguebfl; 11-11-2014 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 11-11-2014, 11:34 AM   #22
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

I haven't actually found that piling on weapon mounts and using N-Weapon Attack to be that super awesome, there is just only a very limited number of circumstances where shooting 8 machine guns is much better than shooting 2

Usually A - enemies are squishy enough that one machine gun is quite sufficient for mauling them

or B - enemies are such that infinite machine guns really wont do the trick
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Old 11-11-2014, 12:16 PM   #23
Kromm
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

Remember that thrown weapons can be dodged, blocked, and parried – even people without Parry Missile Weapons can parry them. They do not bypass parries and blocks (like bullets do), or even just parries without PMW (like arrows do); most have good odds of being avoided. Remember, further, that the canonical Fast-Draw list mostly limits you to weapons that inflict thrust-1 or thrust damage plus Throwing Art bonus, with a ST stat of 5-6 limiting the maximum useful ST to 15-18. So what we're actually talking about here is spamming lots of attacks in the 1d-3 to 1d+4 range (1d is a fair proxy), missing with some, having several avoided, and hitting with a few that won't cope well with any significant armor. The best that can be said about it as a tactic is that you can annoy lots of enemies and might get lucky.

By contrast, archers might fire only two or three arrows with their tricks, but they have cheap ways of getting high effective ST, and weapons that have more range and better basic damage. They're routinely dumping 1d+6 or more much further downrange on a similar points and equipment budget, and their targets can't parry. Also, arrows are cheap and light, giving even shuriken a run for their money.

And yeah, except in unusual circumstances, one well-aimed attack to a soft part of your enemy is more effective than all of this, and a lot easier on ammo.
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Old 11-11-2014, 12:32 PM   #24
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The best that can be said about it as a tactic is that you can annoy lots of enemies and might get lucky.
As I pointed out to one of my players on my blog, this is a natural fit with Retroactive Poisoner from Pyramid 3/61. Put a lot downrange, and then expend your poison doses retroactively on the ones that get through. But really, most won't.
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:26 PM   #25
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

I haven't seen poison used much at all, it is either very expensive, or very dubious. Monster Drool is the cheapest, but even so, its expensive for a one shot item that forces an enemy to do a HT check vs eating 2 damage, since many enemies will be able to ace the HT check, and 2 damage is far from a fight ender most of the time

The Dwarven whetstone is immensely popular for people who want lots of weapons to fling downrange
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:33 PM   #26
Peter V. Dell'Orto
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
I haven't seen poison used much at all, it is either very expensive, or very dubious.
As it should be. Poison that is cheap and effective would be a must-use item, and make little sense - why charge only a little bit for something that's very deadly? Better that it's a mix of "cheap and dubious," "expensive and deadly," and "not so much of either."
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:58 PM   #27
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

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Ingenuity is nice, but others reading the thread might not be GMs or players whose GM is amenable to "These Extra Arms aren't really arms but merely a cheap way to buy Extra Attack!" ;) I think that a trait in the vein of Gunslinger and Heroic Archer is what's needed here. Let's call this Throwing Master [20] to underline that it's in the same family but isn't the same trait. I'd give it these benefits:
  • You may learn the Throwing Art skill (which you'll generally use for all attacks with thrown weapons, though this isn't mandatory).
  • You may ignore off-handedness penalties when throwing weapons. This has no effect when wielding those same weapons off-handed in melee combat.
  • When you Attack or All-Out Attack with a thrown weapon, you may add its Accuracy bonus to skill without taking an Aim maneuver. If you do Aim, you get +1 after one second or +2 after two or more seconds, in addition to Acc.
  • When you Attack or All-Out Attack in close combat, or Move and Attack anywhere, you don't add Acc but you may ignore Bulk.
  • Halve all Fast-Draw penalties to ready throwing weapons. If you have the relevant Fast-Draw skill at 16+, you don't have to roll at all!
  • When you Attack, All-Out Attack, or Move and Attack, you can throw multiple weapons, all of them at -3 per attack past the first; e.g., two attacks at -3, three at -6, four at -9, and so on. These can target different opponents.
  • If you throw using two hands, all attacks start at a basic -2, but the above penalty accrues separately for each hand; e.g., three attacks with one hand at -8, two with the other at -5. One attack with each hand is at -2 instead of -3. Again, these attacks can target different opponents.
  • You can combine Throwing Master with any Weapon Master specialty that covers thrown weapons. The damage bonus doesn't "stack" with that of Throwing Art, but you get all of the other benefits above – and the penalty for multiple attacks becomes just -1 per attack past the first and a basic -1 for using two hands (e.g., three attacks with one hand at -3, two with the other at -2).
  • If for whatever reason you elect to use Rapid Fire with Thrown Weapons (Martial Arts, p. 120) instead of multiple attacks, you can ready whatever you're throwing instantly instead of taking a Ready, if you have a suitable Fast-Draw skill (this always requires a roll!), and you may ignore Bulk.
This is mostly of value for small throwing weapons you can carry by the score and use Fast-Draw on. I'd be very strict about what weapons do and don't work with Fast-Draw. That said, if you want to be generous, consider that carrying 20 throwing axes means lugging around 80 lbs. of weapons and throwing away up to $1,200 of gear. It's somewhat self-limiting. :)
STOP reading the files on my desktop, Sean! ;-P (I just finished a "more power-ups" article that has "Flying Blade," which does basically this.)
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Old 11-11-2014, 02:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Remember that thrown weapons can be dodged, blocked, and parried – even people without Parry Missile Weapons can parry them. They do not bypass parries and blocks (like bullets do), or even just parries without PMW (like arrows do); most have good odds of being avoided. Remember, further, that the canonical Fast-Draw list mostly limits you to weapons that inflict thrust-1 or thrust damage plus Throwing Art bonus, with a ST stat of 5-6 limiting the maximum useful ST to 15-18. So what we're actually talking about here is spamming lots of attacks in the 1d-3 to 1d+4 range (1d is a fair proxy), missing with some, having several avoided, and hitting with a few that won't cope well with any significant armor. The best that can be said about it as a tactic is that you can annoy lots of enemies and might get lucky.

By contrast, archers might fire only two or three arrows with their tricks, but they have cheap ways of getting high effective ST, and weapons that have more range and better basic damage. They're routinely dumping 1d+6 or more much further downrange on a similar points and equipment budget, and their targets can't parry. Also, arrows are cheap and light, giving even shuriken a run for their money.

And yeah, except in unusual circumstances, one well-aimed attack to a soft part of your enemy is more effective than all of this, and a lot easier on ammo.
I called this a special Set-Up ([Weapons covered by Skill] are considered to be projectiles for active defenses]), but I wonder if t might be better suited as a technique....Hmmmm.
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Old 11-11-2014, 03:16 PM   #29
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

I would certainly consider allowing a Heroic Thrower to make Deceptive Attacks vs Block and Parry, not just dodge for Prediction Shot
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Old 11-11-2014, 03:24 PM   #30
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Default Re: Throwing Lots of Knives

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Originally Posted by Ghostdancer View Post
I called this a special Set-Up ([Weapons covered by Skill] are considered to be projectiles for active defenses]), but I wonder if t might be better suited as a technique....Hmmmm.
I could see this as an imbuement. The basic level would treat the projectile as an arrow (requires Parry Missile Weapons), a penalty on the roll would make it as fast as a bullet (requires Enhanced Time Sense or Precognitive Parry), and a higher penalty would turn it into a laser (requires Precognitive Parry). Not sure if it should be easier to "speed up" projectiles that are already going fast (improving an arrow to bullet speed, vs doing the same with a thrown dagger).
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