[RAW] Multiple First-Aid's Treating Shock

[MrFix]

After playing GURPS for years thinking that you could only Treat Shock (and thus restore a 1d of HP) once per... unspecified time, I actually went ahead to read the entry for Treating Shock in detail. There's no outright stated limit to number of times, or delay between attempts, or separation by wound.

RAW, it seems, you can try to Treat Shock as many times as you like, regardless of previous outcome, with no delay between attempts. This concept doesn't seem to be clarified in uFAQ either.

Do any GURPS books expand on this or provide explicit limits on Treat Shock?
Do you understand Treat Shock as a one-time thing? If so, at what point can Treat Shock be used again on the same character?


P.S.: Let's not hang up on the name of the maneuver, as GURPS is often not very good with these things, and description of the maneuver also outlines "applying a more elaborate dressing", which reasonably can happen multiple times if the victim has multiple wounds. Of course, with GURPS having no rules for actual real life shock, only 'momentary stun of pain', the naming is doubly obtuse.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by MrFix

After playing GURPS for years thinking that you could only Treat Shock (and thus restore a 1d of HP) once per... unspecified time, I actually went ahead to read the entry for Treating Shock in detail. There's no outright stated limit to number of times, or delay between attempts, or separation by wound.

RAW, it seems, you can try to Treat Shock as many times as you like, regardless of previous outcome, with no delay between attempts. This concept doesn't seem to be clarified in uFAQ either.

Do any GURPS books expand on this or provide explicit limits on Treat Shock?
Do you understand Treat Shock as a one-time thing? If so, at what point can Treat Shock be used again on the same character?

P.S.: Let's not hang up on the name of the maneuver, as GURPS is often not very good with these things, and description of the maneuver also outlines "applying a more elaborate dressing", which reasonably can happen multiple times if the victim has multiple wounds. Of course, with GURPS having no rules for actual real life shock, only 'momentary stun of pain', the naming is doubly obtuse.

B424 states "After the time indicated on the First Aid Table, he may roll against First Aid skill." The longest time is at TL0-1 (30 minutes) for 1d-4 to 10 minutes for TL9+ for 1d+1.

Based on the "A critical success restores the maximum possible HP!" comment I assume this treatment for shock can only be done once and only after you have successfully stopped bleeding (B420)

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by maximara

B424 states "After the time indicated on the First Aid Table, he may roll against First Aid skill." The longest time is at TL0-1 (30 minutes) for 1d-4 to 10 minutes for TL9+ for 1d+1.

Based on the "A critical success restores the maximum possible HP!" comment I assume this treatment for shock can only be done once and only after you have successfully stopped bleeding (B420)

That means critical success maxes out the 1d of healing, instead of rolling to find out how much. Ie at tl8 crit success heals 6 HP (1d maxed). Its not an indicator of a limit of attempts

Also, the time you describe is not a delay between attempts, its how long 1 attempt takes. It doesn't state how long you have to wait between attempts, or limit of attempts.

[AlexanderHowl]

First Aid is literally the first aid that someone receives after bandaging. You only get one try to treat shock, and it must occur immediately after bandaging. Any player who attempted to argue otherwise in my games would have a short career as an adventurer because I do not tolerate munchkins.

[Tomsdad]

I'd allow multiple attempts but only one successful result i.e. you can try as often as you like and fail, but once you've succeeded you have treated the "shock" (so you can't fish for better results with repeat attempts).

Shock is a pretty nebulous concept though.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

First Aid is literally the first aid that someone receives after bandaging. You only get one try to treat shock, and it must occur immediately after bandaging. Any player who attempted to argue otherwise in my games would have a short career as an adventurer because I do not tolerate munchkins.

The "first" in first aid refers more to you being the first responder or first person to provide medical treatment. Not literally your first attempt to provide medical treatment. First aiders often provide a series of medical treatments and ongoing care. Generally working down the priority list of needs, and in more modern contexts with a view to getting the subject to more complete medical services if warranted.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

First Aid is literally the first aid that someone receives after bandaging. You only get one try to treat shock, and it must occur immediately after bandaging. Any player who attempted to argue otherwise in my games would have a short career as an adventurer because I do not tolerate munchkins.

Interesting. At what point does first aid refresh in your games? It has to at some point, or is it once per mortal life?

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by MrFix

Interesting. At what point does first aid refresh in your games? It has to at some point, or is it once per mortal life?

First Aid is possible per bandaging attempt (or injurious event). So, you could have someone take 11 HP worth of damage during a battle at 9 am and then get First Aid, take 8 HP of damage during a battle at 1 pm and then get First Aid, and take 14 HP of damage during a battle at 5 pm and then get First Aid. Of course, they are in pretty bad shape by then, but the bandages are at least stopping the bleeding.

In my mind, damage rolled represents physical trauma plus physiological shock, which is why you 'recover' HP during bandaging and/or First Aid. Before TL6, bandaging is probably more important than treating shock though, as bleeding out is a major concern for cutting, impaling, and piercing injuries (and major burning and corrosive wounds). A person who takes 14 HP of piercing damage from two wounds could easily bleed out within a half hour if no one starts bandaging them (while one bandaging and/or First Aid attempt treats all wounds after a battle, each wound bleeds separately).

[maximara]

Originally Posted by MrFix

That means critical success maxes out the 1d of healing, instead of rolling to find out how much. Ie at tl8 crit success heals 6 HP (1d maxed). Its not an indicator of a limit of attempts

Also, the time you describe is not a delay between attempts, its how long 1 attempt takes. It doesn't state how long you have to wait between attempts, or limit of attempts.

Ah I was reading it as "A critical success restores the (characters) maximum possible HP!"

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by MrFix

After playing GURPS for years thinking that you could only Treat Shock (and thus restore a 1d of HP) once per... unspecified time, I actually went ahead to read the entry for Treating Shock in detail. There's no outright stated limit to number of times, or delay between attempts, or separation by wound.

RAW, it seems, you can try to Treat Shock as many times as you like, regardless of previous outcome, with no delay between attempts. This concept doesn't seem to be clarified in uFAQ either.

Do any GURPS books expand on this or provide explicit limits on Treat Shock?
Do you understand Treat Shock as a one-time thing? If so, at what point can Treat Shock be used again on the same character?


P.S.: Let's not hang up on the name of the maneuver, as GURPS is often not very good with these things, and description of the maneuver also outlines "applying a more elaborate dressing", which reasonably can happen multiple times if the victim has multiple wounds. Of course, with GURPS having no rules for actual real life shock, only 'momentary stun of pain', the naming is doubly obtuse.

Originally Posted by MrFix

The issue is that there's no word 'each' or 'one attempt' or any variation.

The way you read it has an issue - the only way basic set tracks injuries is via HP loss and crippling system. There's no other way. If it was the way you read it, it'd imply that a person with 3 1 hp worth of dog bites would be entitled to 3 first aid attempts at 3d hp healed total because he has "three separate injuries". At TL8. Which in effect is multiple shock treatments with a requirement of it being 3 separate injuries instead of one.

PS: Nowhere in basic set it outlines what you wrote about stacking, treat shock being once per encounter, etc. RAW there's also no limit on HP healed from bandaging a wound. 1 HP worth of damage still entitles you to full 1d at tl8.

Feel free to provide page numbers and quotes to back your claims up.

Thing is you have to look at the wording in the context of what the system is trying to do here.

So yes you could read pg424 as being able to repeatedly apply first aid against shock and heal HPs as per the table as many times as you like.

But what would that actually mean in play?

That leaving aside any other specific negative consequences with specific injuries e.g. crippled limbs, failing a Mortal wound check. You can heal up as may HP's as you like just with consecutive successful first aid rolls.

That doesn't sound very likely does it? Especially as if that were the intent it would lead to far faster healing than the later medical cares rules on pg424-5