Fighting against Large creatures..

[Gigermann]

I think it makes more sense to say that you can't Dodge something if you aren't capable of vacating the targeted hex (even if you don't). The dragon/aircraft carrier can't move fast enough to clear the targeted hex (unless you're targeting a wingtip or something), so it can't Dodge.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

I think it makes more sense to say that you can't Dodge something if you aren't capable of vacating the targeted hex (even if you don't). The dragon/aircraft carrier can't move fast enough to clear the targeted hex (unless you're targeting a wingtip or something), so it can't Dodge.

Hmm... What about bucking, or other such movements that might confound an attacker clinging to a larger opponent? Those seem like they still might count as active defenses.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I'd suggest that you shouldn't be able to grapple-parry attacks from someone who can treat you as clinging encumbrance rather than a grappler.

There aren't any rules for this, AFAICT.

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Lupo

GURPS lacks tactical combat rules for large creatures; e.g. it is not clear how many hexes will a given creature occupy, nor which hit locations will be harder or impossible to hit due to distance.

Hmmm ... Basic Set, page 456. Both the lion and tiger have their size modifiers as "SM +1 (2 hexes)." I see the same in GURPS Dragons and GURPS Lands Out of Time. There have been some lapses of this, sure, but in general, this is simply not true. We know how many hexes a creature will occupy, most of the time; we always know how much of a bonus to hit the creature we have.

As a side note, it would be nice for such beasts in a bestiary or monster manual or other listing to have their hex layout by the entry. Nothing fancy; a graphic two small black hexes, with one circled to represent the head, would be there for the tiger; three rows of hexes, in a 4-5-4 layout, would represent a 13 hex tyrannosaurus, again with the head hex circled.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There aren't any rules for this, AFAICT.

There are rules for when a grappler counts as encumbrance but doesn't prevent you from moving around.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

There are rules for when a grappler counts as encumbrance but doesn't prevent you from moving around.

Good point.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Bruno

This, basically.

Being big and dangerous isn't special.

Actually, it is.
For maximum realism (or even just for "dramatic realism"), a big dangerous creature should have some clear advantages when compared to a creature which is "just" superstrong (vampire, super, barbarian with strenght potions and spells, whatever).

I think we can all agree that these advantages should include:
1) "Heavy" melee attacks, very difficult or impossible to be parried, forcing players to Dodge.
2) "Wide" melee attacks, more difficult to avoid, forcing players to penalized Dodges.
3) "Very wide" melee attacks, affecting more than one character at a time
4) "Tallness": most hit locations will be harder or impossible to reach.
5) "Long reach"
6) "Giant stride": most fantasy monsters are quicker than their size would suggest. Even real-life elephants and whales can be surprisingly quick. I am not referring to Move in itself, but to the capability of making long Steps (thanks to the very long limbs)
7) "Giant weapons": should weigh more and deal more damage than ordinary weapons.

How could GURPS represent such things?
1) Revising and simplifying the (clearly mistaken) rules about parrying heavy unarmed attacks.
2) and 3) Saying that a creature with SM +X might opt to "divide" its melee attacks among Y adjacent hexes (where Y is a function of X). If the creature chooses to do so, damage is divided by Y but it can affect all characters in those hexes. Moreover, such characters should have a penalty to defenses (say, Y*2) to represent the difficulty of avoiding a giant tail that sweeps a whole room.
3) Alternatively, to make good use of already published material, GURPS could make Whirlwind attacks (MA89) easier for giant creatures. E.g. it could say that for creatures at least 2 SM smaller than you, Whirlwind attacks are realistic, not cinematic, and get a bonus equal to the SM difference.
4) GURPS perhaps can represent this using the advanced rules for hit locations found in Martial Arts, and possibly the rules for fighting at different heights, but simpler, more generic penalties tied to SM would be nice.
5) GURPS already represents this adequately with the rules for how SM increases Reach (B402).
6) Creatures with high enough SM could have a Step distance greater than their move alone would suggest. E.g., one could say that the "minimum Step" is half the height of a creature, rounded down, regardless of that creature's Move (or, up to the full Move of that creature, to be more exact).
7) GURPS (at last!) adequately represent this with the rules for oversized weapons found in Low Tech Companion.

I am not saying that GURPS cannot possibly represent such things, nor that it fails miserably at doing so... but the rules for fighting giant creatures are scattered, often need some work to be applied to giant creatures, and in some cases they are outright missing.

All this combined, makes it quite hard for GMs to run a "convincing" tactical combat against huge monsters. I bet that most GM just handwave everything, just giving to their monsters a very high damage and lots of HP.

I think that a short essay about using existing GURPS rules to fight giant creatures, and adapting / adding new rules to fill the "holes", could be very useful and possibly make for an interesting Pyramid article.

Early stone age humans and pre-humans walked the earth with big and dangerous megafauna. We ate them regularly, and the current theory is that we hunted more than a few types to total extinction.

I read Guns, germs and steel too, so I know all that but I can't see how it is relevant to the typical RPG situation (an open fight with mostly melee weapons).
As far as I know stone age humans used traps, thrown/ranged weapons, long spears and so on to hunt large animals.
If you have evidence saying they actually challenged mammoths to single combat, or even a small group of humans VS a mammoth, I am ready to change my opinion.

A flying elephant of fire-breathing death is a problem because of the flying, and fire-breathing. If it's hyper-intelligent, that's a problem too. Not the elephant part, especially when facing people with well-developed tactics, steel armor, lances pikes and other pole-arms, crossbowmen, and frequently wizards too.

The movie Alexander depicts a fight with elephants quite convincingly (can't say if it is realistic, but at least it looks realistic). Using GURPS rules and stats, an elephant would not be as dangerous as in that movie.

[Ulzgoroth]

I'm not convinced that sweeping attacks are really that important. Other than, of course, the large-area slam you get when something big decides to clear a path. Not that it would hurt to represent them, but melee isn't about AoE attacks.

Originally Posted by Lupo

1) Revising and simplifying the (clearly mistaken) rules about parrying heavy unarmed attacks.

They could scarcely be any simpler, though they certainly do need revision. However, that revision quite possibly wouldn't produce any favoritism for massive creatures over less massive but equally strong creatures, nor is it obvious that it should.

Originally Posted by Lupo

4) GURPS perhaps can represent this using the advanced rules for hit locations found in Martial Arts, and possibly the rules for fighting at different heights, but simpler, more generic penalties tied to SM would be nice.

...they'd be intrinsically awful and constantly applied when they shouldn't be. Which is to say in almost any case when they could be used.

Originally Posted by Lupo

6) Creatures with high enough SM could have a Step distance greater than their move alone would suggest. E.g., one could say that the "minimum Step" is half the height of a creature, rounded down, regardless of that creature's Move (or, up to the full Move of that creature, to be more exact).

"Step" and "step" are not synonymous. Big creatures may have big strides, but that has no bearing on how far they should be able to move as a "Step".

Originally Posted by Lupo

The movie Alexander depicts a fight with elephants quite convincingly (can't say if it is realistic, but at least it looks realistic). Using GURPS rules and stats, an elephant would not be as dangerous as in that movie.

...Yeah, let's not attempt to source realism from movies. Nothing good can come of that.

[Gigermann]

It was suggested in this old thread that a "giant" could legitimately be given Enhanced Move (for the longer stride; could also translate into a bigger "Step" as well), and perhaps Reduced Dodge to make up for both the increased Move and Size issues. This could likely work as well for a typical dragon, but less so for the aircraft carrier.

I've always been a fan of "scaling" mechanics. Works just fine for DR and whatnot, but not so well for Dodge (which would get lower rather than higher).

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Gigermann

It was suggested in this old thread that a "giant" could legitimately be given Enhanced Move (for the longer stride; could also translate into a bigger "Step" as well),

Enhanced Move doesn't improve Step, unfortunately. I think Extra Step was pegged at about 20 points somewhere on the forums here, which looks like a fair price to me.

Originally Posted by Gigermann

and perhaps Reduced Dodge to make up for both the increased Move and Size issues. This could likely work as well for a typical dragon, but less so for the aircraft carrier.

I'm quite sure Aircraft Carriers have terrible acceleration and a good top speed, so they're excellent candidates for a low Move and high Enhanced Move. I'm also pretty sure they can't dodge, so Reduced Dodge down to 0 seems to be a necessity.