Combat evolution and the dynamic battlefield

[Gef]

To the original post (haven't read the whole thread):

The GURPS tactical combat system is awsome and will provide what you're looking for, BUT you need to use it, and for the game to flow, you need to use it without constantly looking stuff up. And that means that you need to waste a couple of sessions on arena matches with throw-away characters to make your future games better. No getting around it that I know of.

Once you do this, you'll get a sense of when various combat options are useful, so here are some examples, in no particular order, that I found from the arena sessions I ran.

If you have a weapon with superior reach, you need to use the Wait maneuver. Stop just beyond your own reach and declare Wait. The other guy steps in, you nail him. The other guy Waits, you step and nail him on your turn, and you're still outside his reach. If he's not debilitated, he can step in close enough to attack on his next turn, but you get to retreat. On your turn, you can attack and step back, and the whole thing starts over. Results in spear guy getting more attacks than sword guy, and spear guy getting retreat bonuses to defend while sword guy doesn't.

A second step is very cool. Start in the hex in front of foe, step to his front right, then to his right rear, and get a "run-around attack" imposing -2 to his defense (and bypassing his shield). There are a few ways to do this. One is a committed attack for an extra step, which penalizes your defense as well, but if you nail him it may not matter. Another is Extra Effort (Heroic Charge). My favorite is to "retreat" during his attack with a sidestep into his left or right front hex, then use the step you get on your turn to finish the run-around.

Need some extra move, but you don't wanna be an easy target, and you also don't wanna burn fatigue or be limited to a Wild Swing? Take all-out-attack, for feint plus attack, and make the feint a defensive one.

Feint (or beat) is good. Even if your skill is even with the other guy, you penalize his defense half the time. I think it's the most important technique; max it out, because it also helps you see through the other guy's feint. Use it in conjunction with a reverse grip, for a little extra bonus. Feint is the best reason to for a big man to use a small weapon, for he might get a +2 bonus to Feint (from the optional rule A Matter of Inches). A spinning attack is risky, but if you've already feinted, it works a lot better.

If you penalize the other guy's defense with a feint and a run-around attack, All-Out Attack is worth it. Either take the bonus to hit to call a shot at a fight-stopping location, or attack twice.

The option to make a Defensive Attack makes unbalanced weapons like axes cool again.

"Retreat" into close combat, armed grapple the arm, arm lock, your weapon skill vs his HT for damage. Ouch.

Posture is a big deal. For yourself, learn the low-fighting maneuver. Being able to move in and out of a crouch is helpful by itself (especially with a sacrifice throw using Judo), and if you're knocked down, you can get to a crouch faster than you can stand up. An opponent on the ground defends at a whopping -4, so attacks that put him on the ground can win a fight. Real life martial arts teach this, and it works in GURPS too. Slam, Sweep, Throw. Many weapons can sweep, and any weapon can use an armed grapple plus lock plus throw from a lock. Might be a good combo to buy up as a technique.

Telegraphic Attack, like All-Out Attack, is good if you've penalized the other guy's defense. The +4 bonus can help you hit him in the sweet spot. Also, it covers most of the penalty for a Rapid Strike, and multiple attacks penalize the other guy's defense. Try a Feint, followed by a Telegraphic Attack with Extra Effort (Flurry). Tell me how it works out.

All this stuff I just described, try it out on your players, and see if their tactics don't change in response.

GEF

Originally Posted by Mailanka

What sorts of modifiers have you had success in using during a fight to keep the fight dynamic?

Terrain and posture.

PS: I wrote this in response to a request for combat examples: http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=11

[Darekun]

Are you just using relatively-realistic humans?

An opponent with Enhanced Move can "joust", and use slam damage to boost natural weapons. Perhaps the biggest advantage of this to a GM is that it gives the player several seconds during which they can plot and set up a defense… which will usually be more interesting.

An opponent with enough move to get a better step can make runaround attacks as a matter of course; this simple spin can run into trouble in confined quarters.



Also, destructible environments can help; stab a barrel to create a slick, break a light machine to move safely through its hex, slash a tent pole rather than try to get past AOD: Improved Parry, etc.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Engurrand

2) The in game circumstances are too simple. Take the example of a real life Olympic fencing match. To the untrained eye, it is two fighters performing flurries of rapid strikes, parries and deceptive attacks. Consequently, Olympic fencing is boring to the layman. In reality, there are counters, ripostes, beats, stop-cuts, stop-thrusts, feigns and target attacks all happening, we idiots just don't see them. (Those are all options in gurps, btw). What we see, are two people moving sometimes forwards, sometimes backwards, on a strip 2 meters wide and 18 meters long, with equal length weapons, identical styles, perfect lighting, perfect footing, and breaks to catch their breath. FUN.

Yeah that's not what a fight looks like, and more importantly, it's not what we WANT a fight to look like, unless our game is re-enacting Pirates of the Caribbean.

That's actually exactly what I want (out of this thread, at least). I want a way to take two identical styles, one-on-one, and make the fight dynamic and interesting. Obviously, such fights are dynamic and interesting, hence why there's an entire sport around it. They may not look dynamic and interesting from the outside, but the players aren't on the outside. They're participating, so they are (or should be) struggling to decide between which maneuver, fighting over every possible +1 advantage, even to lesser elements (like A Matter of Inches).

This is what you see in swashbuckling movies, samurai movies and many wuxia movies. Yes, terrain and vivid description and interesting circumstances are all great, but as you suggest, this part, this element, is problematic, and this is the element that I want to improve in my game. If your fight is awesome in a featureless expanse where both characters have (roughly) the same style, then it'll be especially interesting when you bring in the vivid description and the fascinating terrain and the awesome scenario.

Originally Posted by Tyneras

Also, take a look at technique for stringing together several targeted attacks, I think my favorite was a sweep followed by a double face stomp.

This is an interesting one. I've played with combos before, and I find, in general, that they offer a whole suite of advantages and disadvantages. While using it to make three attacks in a row is obviously useful, if you use it too often, your opponent gets a +1 to defend, and if he defends against the first attack, he gets +3 to defend against the rest. Thus, you must use them sparingly and, ideally, in a situation where you're certain you'll get that hit in.

That's a good point. I'll have to ponder this one further.

Originally Posted by Gef

A second step is very cool. Start in the hex in front of foe, step to his front right, then to his right rear, and get a "run-around attack" imposing -2 to his defense (and bypassing his shield). There are a few ways to do this. One is a committed attack for an extra step, which penalizes your defense as well, but if you nail him it may not matter.

*gasp* You're right! Committed attacks can give a second step. Oh, that's interesting!

Need some extra move, but you don't wanna be an easy target, and you also don't wanna burn fatigue or be limited to a Wild Swing? Take all-out-attack, for feint plus attack, and make the feint a defensive one.

Another fascinating tactic.

[Gef]

Techniques are a great way to differentiate fights and fighters. Improving more than a couple is rarely cost-effective, unless they stack, so each fighter will have a favorite. The ones they can use best, they'll use most often.

Suppose I have high skill, plus Enhanced Defenses, yielding a good parry. In addition I have a large shield. I also buy up Counterattack to max. When attacked, I choose all-out defense, and spend extra effort for a feverish defense, with a retreat. I use these bonuses to counter the penalty for a riposte. On my next turn, I switch to all-out attack, which gives me the movement allowance for a run-around attack. My foe parries at -2 for position, -2 for the counter, and some additional penalty for my riposte. In addition, I take the +4 bonus from an all-out attack and improvise a technique that imposes a further defense penalty. At this point, I am very likely to hit. This tactic works great for me because I bought up Counterattack, but other fighters wouldn't use it.

GEF

PS: When you use tactics to stack the odds, you still run that risk of blowing it. The other guy rolls against 7 to parry, a 15% chance, yet he makes it! The advantage LUCK is very useful to make this stuff work. Forcing your foe to reroll a defense of 14 is not very useful, but forcing him to re-roll against 7 is very useful.

[Gef]

What good is a pistol crossbow? Even though you can fire it one-handed, you need to make it ready for the next shot, and that takes enough time to get killed. But unlike a bow, you don't need any effort to KEEP it cocked, so as long as it is cocked, it is a threat. I would therefore allow defensive feints with a loaded pistol crossbow, and give a bonus to Intimidation during combat just for having it. And of course, the wielder can still do mean things with his other hand, like grappling a hostage. -GEF

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

This... this is profound. I'll have to ponder this. Any suggestions on which tactics I can have enemies use to encourage players to change out from straight attacks? I think someone's already mentioned differing reaches (So, give some enemies spears). Feints might encourage Evaluates (if I use that optional rule, and I probably will). What would encourage players to All-Out Attack or Wait?

For the GM, esp a GM with mild programming or spreadsheet skills, and the ability to use a laptop or computer at the gaming table, random rolls can be your friend.

Take a look at the various options. Bucket them into some categories, and add some 'attitudes.'

So you can have tactics suited for inexperienced or scared warriors, those for averages, and those for experts. Then some attitudes: hold in place, aggressive, defensive

Each NPC picks one, and rolls randomly every turn (or every turn the outcome is in doubt). You can weight probabilities as you like, of course, but the PCs would never quite know what the enemy is going to do. Illogical and non-standard tactics would be possible: "Why the heck would someone WAIT after scoring a hit!?" But you DO see crazy stuff like that in fights.

[Engurrand]

Originally Posted by Fnugus

You might note that you have to move *away* from the attacker when retreating. If that means forward, then yes, you get bonuses.

The "slip" option is a dodge that takes you one step closer to your adversary and gives +1. So... yes not retreating technically.

[Wraithe]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

This... this is profound. I'll have to ponder this. Any suggestions on which tactics I can have enemies use to encourage players to change out from straight attacks?...

Kromm in a thread on GURPS' 1 second turn.

Basically the idea being that if you are straight attacking every round, you're not paying the best of attention to your surroundings.

If you're talking about simple one-on-one fights - dirty tricks, opponents dropping things like caltrops, holdout weapons, concealed armor, poison rings, magic items; there are a number of things you can throw at a player to make him wish that they'd taken a second or two to make an Evaluate on their opponent.

Of course with large scale fights, the list becomes almost literally endless (flanking attacks, surprise reinforcements, hidden foes, etc).

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

That's actually exactly what I want (out of this thread, at least). I want a way to take two identical styles, one-on-one, and make the fight dynamic and interesting. Obviously, such fights are dynamic and interesting, hence why there's an entire sport around it. They may not look dynamic and interesting from the outside, but the players aren't on the outside. They're participating, so they are (or should be) struggling to decide between which maneuver, fighting over every possible +1 advantage, even to lesser elements (like A Matter of Inches).

This is what you see in swashbuckling movies, samurai movies and many wuxia movies.

Well, no. It isn't. What you see in movies is choreography, not fighting. Fighting isn't really interesting and dynamic in the way that you want it to be; it's just two guys trying to be the first one to incapacitate the other, and real fighters don't run all over the place trading blows.

Your problem is that you want to have dynamic movie duels naturally emerge from (more or less) realistic fighting mechanics and they don't.

That said, I am not without ideas, not all of which are good...

1. You could choreograph the fights yourself, over the objections of your players. Probably not an acceptable option for anybody, but it would give you the dynamics you want.

2. Combatants do have the option of adopting variant tactics: using Wait and Evaluate to wait out his opponent, or using Feints to set up effective attacks. Someone who has been feinted (and let's not start up the debate over whether or not he should know) is more likely to retreat on their next defense, which adds dynamism. The problem here is that attacking every turn is a pretty effective tactic, so combatants don't necessarily have any incentive to try anything else.

3. You could encourage variation and movement by penalizing repetitious actions (say, a cumulative -1 per attack after the first, until the combatant chooses a different kind of attack or a non-attack maneuver) or standing in the same hex. However this will probably give you combatants who continually step from side to side and switch between two favored attacks. Note that this may too much finicky bookkeeping for you.

4. Alternately, or at the same time, you could whip up a deck of homemade cards, with things on them like "+2 to Feint" or "+1 to Acrobatic Dodge" or "+3 to any action while standing on or wielding a piece of furniture", etc. Deal out a few to each fighter, and they can use each card once to get the stated bonus for one action. This will encourage them to try unusual maneuvers or jockey for some tactically advantageous position. Redraws might happen when cards are played, or after spending a turn Evaluating.