Another question about jets

coronatiger · 10-07-2021, 01:25 AM

As I understand jet spells, on the turn you cast them, you have to pay the FP cost, and on each subsequent turn, you can pay to maintain the spell if you want to attack with it. It seems unfair that you have to pay the first turn since you don't get to attack, and unreasonable and illogical that the spell does nothing until it runs out of its original duration. Can someone give justification for this? Or correct my understanding, if it's wrong?

The Benj · 10-07-2021, 01:53 AM

I'd thought you did get to attack with it straight away, and that was the point of it as compared to missile spells.

Tinman · 10-07-2021, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coronatiger

As I understand jet spells, on the turn you cast them, you have to pay the FP cost, and on each subsequent turn, you can pay to maintain the spell if you want to attack with it. It seems unfair that you have to pay the first turn since you don't get to attack, and unreasonable and illogical that the spell does nothing until it runs out of its original duration. Can someone give justification for this? Or correct my understanding, if it's wrong?

So with out any other enhancement's it's true you can't attack with them.
However, IIRC you can use them like a sword. You can defend your self from attacks, ect...

Also, it's just the mechanics of the system: It's a regular spell & you need to cast it. Once it's cast you can maintain it & use it.

A missile spell is exactly the same BTW. You cast the spell on your first turn & can't attack with it until the next turn (at the earliest).

Tinman · 10-07-2021, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Benj

I'd thought you did get to attack with it straight away, and that was the point of it as compared to missile spells.

No. But, once it's on it can stay on & not need to be recast after every attack.

Rupert · 10-07-2021, 03:50 AM

It seems to me that when you cast a spell, taking a turn to do so, you roll the cast check and pay the FP at the end of the turn. Therefore, if the spell is like Flame Jet and has a duration of one turn, it will last until the end of your next turn. Thus to attack with it once you spent a turn casting it, and pay the FP cost. On the next turn you attack with it, and then it goes out unless you pay the maintenance cost. Thus you don't have to pay the FP cost twice just to attack with it the once.

The Benj · 10-07-2021, 05:17 AM

Ah yes, I think it may be a side effect of the fact that, pre-4th Edition, you can a spell by Concentrating, then the spell was actually CAST at the start of your next turn (to give a chance for you to be interrupted). So it would have been:
Turn 1. You start casting
Turn 2. You actually cast the spell, then take an Attack to use it.

Donny Brook · 10-07-2021, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Benj

Ah yes, I think it may be a side effect of the fact that, pre-4th Edition, you can a spell by Concentrating, then the spell was actually CAST at the start of your next turn (to give a chance for you to be interrupted). So it would have been:
Turn 1. You start casting
Turn 2. You actually cast the spell, then take an Attack to use it.

To expand on that, my understanding is:

Character A turn 1:
Concentrate to cast
Spell begins at end of turn 1

Character A turn 2:
Spell effects become applicable
Character A chooses Manouever to use effects
1 second of spell duration has passed at end of this turn (pay maintenance (free action) if desired)

Character A turn 3:
Spell effects continue if it was maintained
Character A chooses Manouever (possibly affected by 'spell on' modifiers)

swampthing · 10-07-2021, 05:54 PM

Under the model where one has to maintain the jet after casting it but before using it, I don't see when the one-second duration is supposed to be happening. It seems obvious to me that it happens the turn after casting.

This doesn't seem to have anything to do with jets per se, just with the fact that the spell only has a one-second duration.

coronatiger · 10-08-2021, 02:13 AM

It makes sense that the initial duration of the spell starts at the end of the turn you cast it. Since there is no gap between the turns of a specific character, the spell also starts at the beginning of the turn after casting. The one-second duration then lasts until the end of that turn, which allows for one attack with the jet. You have to decide during that same turn whether to maintain the spell or not, so you may have wasted some FP if combat ends before it's your turn again.

Mr_Sandman · 10-08-2021, 07:15 AM

I don’t worry too much about making things exactly fit with a precise, legalistic reading of the rules. I have my players pay the FP to cast on the first turn, when they take a concentrate maneuver. That pays for operation of the spell the next turn, when they can take an attack maneuver with the jet. It doesn’t make sense to have to pay to maintain a spell that hasn’t gone into effect yet. If on the turn following that, they want to use the jet again, that’s when they start paying to maintain.

10-07-2021, 01:25 AM	#1
coronatiger Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Trondheim, Norway	Another question about jets As I understand jet spells, on the turn you cast them, you have to pay the FP cost, and on each subsequent turn, you can pay to maintain the spell if you want to attack with it. It seems unfair that you have to pay the first turn since you don't get to attack, and unreasonable and illogical that the spell does nothing until it runs out of its original duration. Can someone give justification for this? Or correct my understanding, if it's wrong? __________________ You don't need to spend 100 CP on Status 5 [25] and Multimillionaire [75] to feel like a princess, when Delusion [-10] will do. Character sheet: Google Drive link (See this thread for details.) Campaign logs: Chaotic Pioneering / Confessions of a Forked Tongue

10-07-2021, 01:53 AM	#2
The Benj MIB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Platform Zero, Sydney, Australia	Re: Another question about jets I'd thought you did get to attack with it straight away, and that was the point of it as compared to missile spells.

10-07-2021, 03:50 AM	#5
Rupert Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Wellington, NZ	Re: Another question about jets It seems to me that when you cast a spell, taking a turn to do so, you roll the cast check and pay the FP at the end of the turn. Therefore, if the spell is like Flame Jet and has a duration of one turn, it will last until the end of your next turn. Thus to attack with it once you spent a turn casting it, and pay the FP cost. On the next turn you attack with it, and then it goes out unless you pay the maintenance cost. Thus you don't have to pay the FP cost twice just to attack with it the once. __________________ Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."

10-07-2021, 05:17 AM	#6
The Benj MIB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Platform Zero, Sydney, Australia	Re: Another question about jets Ah yes, I think it may be a side effect of the fact that, pre-4th Edition, you can a spell by Concentrating, then the spell was actually CAST at the start of your next turn (to give a chance for you to be interrupted). So it would have been: Turn 1. You start casting Turn 2. You actually cast the spell, then take an Attack to use it.

10-07-2021, 05:54 PM	#8
swampthing Join Date: Jul 2007	Re: Another question about jets Under the model where one has to maintain the jet after casting it but before using it, I don't see when the one-second duration is supposed to be happening. It seems obvious to me that it happens the turn after casting. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with jets per se, just with the fact that the spell only has a one-second duration. Last edited by swampthing; 10-07-2021 at 05:57 PM.

10-08-2021, 02:13 AM	#9
coronatiger Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Trondheim, Norway	Re: Another question about jets It makes sense that the initial duration of the spell starts at the end of the turn you cast it. Since there is no gap between the turns of a specific character, the spell also starts at the beginning of the turn after casting. The one-second duration then lasts until the end of that turn, which allows for one attack with the jet. You have to decide during that same turn whether to maintain the spell or not, so you may have wasted some FP if combat ends before it's your turn again. __________________ You don't need to spend 100 CP on Status 5 [25] and Multimillionaire [75] to feel like a princess, when Delusion [-10] will do. Character sheet: Google Drive link (See this thread for details.) Campaign logs: Chaotic Pioneering / Confessions of a Forked Tongue

10-08-2021, 07:15 AM	#10
Mr_Sandman Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: L.I., NY	Re: Another question about jets I don’t worry too much about making things exactly fit with a precise, legalistic reading of the rules. I have my players pay the FP to cast on the first turn, when they take a concentrate maneuver. That pays for operation of the spell the next turn, when they can take an attack maneuver with the jet. It doesn’t make sense to have to pay to maintain a spell that hasn’t gone into effect yet. If on the turn following that, they want to use the jet again, that’s when they start paying to maintain.